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0 pointscore-questions7y ago0 comments

This is a huge concern. I have known several people who, when they lose their seasonal jobs, coast on unemployment insurance until the very last minute, sometimes even going as far as welfare and couch surfing before a new job finds them (they won't go looking for it themselves).

All they want is beer, weed, porn, and video games. They don't seem to want relationships, work, friendships beyond smoking buddies... it's saddening, honestly.

I worry that UBI will enable large swathes of these people, permanently stunted in their personal growth, incapable of acting as real adults. Meanwhile, UBI itself may not be a sustainable system; if it results in taxation that cannot be borne by those who keep working, the result will be that it will eventually be cancelled. What happens to all those who subsist on UBI if that happens? Nothing is guaranteed...

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SketchySeaBeast7y ago

Like you say, these stunted people already exist. They already do everything in their power to minimize their work time, including trying for disability or welfare. UBI won't create more of them, and it won't end the ones we have, but it may add stability to the working poor.

rabidrat7y ago

How do you know that UBI won't create more of them? It's a common refrain, like with legalization ("anyone who wants to smoke weed is already doing it"), and I know several people who didn't smoke before it became legal, and are now smoking regularly. It seems reasonable to think that UBI would enable some class of people who would otherwise exert themselves, to no longer bother.

SketchySeaBeast7y ago

Because there's already social safety nets those people can use. And yes, absolutely, there are probably going to be groups of people who are barely working now that will stop, but given there's already means to not work, I can't see this being a huge group, and really, this is an optimist / pessimist face-off, which is sad, because that's how we probably see the possible outcomes too. The only way we can know if it'll work or not is for someone to try it - which, thankfully, YC is.

rabidrat7y ago

Not sure if you've ever used those social safety nets, but they are not easy to qualify for and/or sign up for, so only the stubborn and/or desperate actually take advantage of them. There are also disincentives, like misinformation, run-arounds, and social shaming. From what I've heard, these reasons are exactly why UBI is a better strategy than those social safety nets--and why we can expect more people to take advantage of them.

jlawson7y ago

The modern welfare state (post-1930) did create a huge number of these stunted people. UBI will create many more, and it'll be a generational compounding effect, as the stunting increases through generations and we develop familities where no ancestor has worked for 3+ generations.

Just reflect for a moment on how many of such stunted people existed in 1925, compared to today. Now apply that difference again a few more times, to a segment of the population with above-average fertility, and guess how many generations such a system can last.

SketchySeaBeast7y ago

If there were no stunted people, why did the welfare state get created? And do you have any evidence of this increase, or did it just codify the problem that already existed?

enraged_camel7y ago

>>All they want is beer, weed, porn, and video games. They don't seem to want relationships, work, friendships beyond smoking buddies... it's saddening, honestly.

Honestly, this says more about your need to judge those people, than those people themselves.

What is wrong with wanting nothing other than beer, weed, and video games? Seems like a nice, simple life. If it makes them happy, why does it make you sad?

Is it because your happiness is shackled by some utopian (or rather, dystopian) dream where everyone "realizes their full potential" or some such nonsense?

ams61107y ago

I have no problem if all someone wants out of life is to get high and jack off. I do have somewhat of a problem being forced to pay for it.

enraged_camel7y ago

Again though, why do you have a problem with other people doing things that make them happy?

NateEag7y ago

He doesn't.

He just feels it's not his responsibility to enable it, and that the government forcing him to is violating his freedom of choice.

At least, that's one of the things that bothers me about it.

Civilized society is all about trading individual freedom for group stability, and perhaps UBI is on balance a good idea.

I'm not sure myself, but I tend to be skeptical of claims that "X will solve society's woes."

Giving people wealth doesn't change them, and it has really fouled up some places - look at what happened to Haiti after the earthquake when all the aid poured in. Local farms largely died out because they couldn't compete with free food, and as a result the country became less self-sustaining and wealthy.

So, yeah, I guess I have similar concerns for UBI.

war10257y ago

My uncle is a perpetual slacker and alcoholic. Last winter he got frost bite on his feet so bad that they ended up amputating both of them. He couldn't be bothered to get up and stoke the fire.

Some people are defective. It's just the truth.

apl0027y ago

this is my little brother :(

aphextron7y ago

>this is my little brother :(

It's all of our little brothers. It's an entire generation of lost souls spending their lives on World of Warcraft and Fortnite, feeling like they are accomplishing something by earning another loot crate. When fantasy becomes more compelling and stimulating than real life, it's no wonder.

Daishiman7y ago

There is very little evidence that this is true.

In the past those people would have loitered around shops (remember when that was a thing), spent afternoons in fishing holes, or just gotten drunk all day, or spent all time reading low-brow fiction.

Escapism is a fact or life and there's not much evidence that people are doing it a substantially higher rate than before. Or, that escapism is actually any worse than being forced to work miserable jobs until you rot away.

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SketchySeaBeast7y ago

rabidrat7y ago

SketchySeaBeast7y ago

rabidrat7y ago

jlawson7y ago

SketchySeaBeast7y ago

If there were no stunted people, why did the welfare state get created? And do you have any evidence of this increase, or did it just codify the problem that already existed?

enraged_camel7y ago

>>All they want is beer, weed, porn, and video games. They don't seem to want relationships, work, friendships beyond smoking buddies... it's saddening, honestly.

Honestly, this says more about your need to judge those people, than those people themselves.

What is wrong with wanting nothing other than beer, weed, and video games? Seems like a nice, simple life. If it makes them happy, why does it make you sad?

Is it because your happiness is shackled by some utopian (or rather, dystopian) dream where everyone "realizes their full potential" or some such nonsense?

ams61107y ago

I have no problem if all someone wants out of life is to get high and jack off. I do have somewhat of a problem being forced to pay for it.

enraged_camel7y ago

Again though, why do you have a problem with other people doing things that make them happy?

NateEag7y ago

He doesn't.

He just feels it's not his responsibility to enable it, and that the government forcing him to is violating his freedom of choice.

At least, that's one of the things that bothers me about it.

Civilized society is all about trading individual freedom for group stability, and perhaps UBI is on balance a good idea.

I'm not sure myself, but I tend to be skeptical of claims that "X will solve society's woes."

So, yeah, I guess I have similar concerns for UBI.

war10257y ago

My uncle is a perpetual slacker and alcoholic. Last winter he got frost bite on his feet so bad that they ended up amputating both of them. He couldn't be bothered to get up and stoke the fire.

Some people are defective. It's just the truth.

apl0027y ago

this is my little brother :(

aphextron7y ago

>this is my little brother :(

Daishiman7y ago

There is very little evidence that this is true.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse