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0 pointscousin_it7y ago0 comments

The grandparent comment wasn't about formal replacing informal, it was about bureaucracy replacing dictatorship.

I don't think that's always a good thing. If the organization has some urgent goal, like winning a war or putting a man on the Moon, some dictatorship is needed to keep bureaucracy in check. But when there's no more urgent goal than well-being of the organization's members, that's when dictatorship fades and the subcommittees begin to sprout.

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threatofrain7y ago

All dictatorships have bureaucracies; are they going to rule alone? The question is whether those power structures are visible and explicitly negotiable.

pas7y ago

Is this really true? Does this work in every kind of war or Moon-race? Control is important, but so is individual initiative. The front line needs the latter the HQ needs the former. That's why "aligning goals" is the important thing, not just rules for power's sake. (That's authorianism of course.)

JadeNB7y ago

To be clear, pas's comment is replying to an earlier version of cousin_it's:

> Correction - that's how organizations work when their goal is making members happy. If the organization has an external goal, like winning a war or putting a man on the Moon, it needs to be more authoritarian.

(EDIT: cousin_it's comment changed again while I was writing this, somewhat closer to the original. Anyway, probably just keep in mind that any now-nonsensical response may be to an earlier version.)

cousin_itOP7y ago

Individual initiative is maximized when people have sole responsibility for their tasks, not when every decision needs to be approved by ten committees.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/03/19/two-stories/

JadeNB7y ago

> Individual initiative is maximized when people have sole responsibility for their tasks, not when every decision needs to be approved by ten committees.

> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/03/19/two-stories/

But there's a big gap between "Option A has worked better than Option B [Spolsky, anecdote]" and even "Option A is always better than Option B", much less "Option A maximises the desired outcome."

pas7y ago

But who sets the goal? What's Python's goal? Etc.

Maybe it can be as simple as a benevolent-dictator election. Or it can be as complex as direct democracy (voting on PEPs) - but then who can vote becomes the issue, etc.

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oblio7y ago

Every military in the world is hierarchical and the best armies gave people lower in the hierarchy a bit of freedom so that they could improvise. They also educated almost every rank to be able to handle the duties of their immediate superior in case they needed to take that position quickly.

Basically control > individual initiative but control + individual initiative >>> absolute control (see Stalinism).

exo7627y ago

I wonder if programming languages might be considered a type of a project where comfort of members is of less importance than other goals (mindshare?).

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threatofrain7y ago

All dictatorships have bureaucracies; are they going to rule alone? The question is whether those power structures are visible and explicitly negotiable.

pas7y ago

JadeNB7y ago

To be clear, pas's comment is replying to an earlier version of cousin_it's:

(EDIT: cousin_it's comment changed again while I was writing this, somewhat closer to the original. Anyway, probably just keep in mind that any now-nonsensical response may be to an earlier version.)

cousin_itOP7y ago

Individual initiative is maximized when people have sole responsibility for their tasks, not when every decision needs to be approved by ten committees.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/03/19/two-stories/

JadeNB7y ago

> Individual initiative is maximized when people have sole responsibility for their tasks, not when every decision needs to be approved by ten committees.

> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/03/19/two-stories/

But there's a big gap between "Option A has worked better than Option B [Spolsky, anecdote]" and even "Option A is always better than Option B", much less "Option A maximises the desired outcome."

pas7y ago

But who sets the goal? What's Python's goal? Etc.

Maybe it can be as simple as a benevolent-dictator election. Or it can be as complex as direct democracy (voting on PEPs) - but then who can vote becomes the issue, etc.

1 more reply

oblio7y ago

Basically control > individual initiative but control + individual initiative >>> absolute control (see Stalinism).

exo7627y ago

I wonder if programming languages might be considered a type of a project where comfort of members is of less importance than other goals (mindshare?).

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse