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0 pointsSolaceQuantum7y ago0 comments

Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners, or don't have the resources to access abortion services (especially in states where there are less than a handful of clinics that offer the services in the first place of have regulations explicitly to limit a woman's bodily autonomy rights), or had children before the breadwinner of the family was put in jail or otherwise lost their jobs due to the disproportionate choice in law enforcement in USA.

There is, in fact, a massive confluence of reasons why poor people end up having children, and shaming them for doing so instead of helping those reasons will not help anyone.

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8 comments · 3 top-level

zeroname7y ago· 3 in thread

> Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners

This is not true at all. Everyone knows how not to have children, just like everyone knows smoking can cause cancer. People just take the risk anyway. It's basic human irrationality, no amount of education can fix it.

Societal pressure, on the other hand, does have some of the desired effect, even if it's not a "nice thing" like education.

ceejayoz7y ago

> This is not true at all. Everyone knows how not to have children...

I used to help moderate a LiveJournal community called "amipregnant" and this is a laughably false assertion.

"Yes, you can get pregnant your first time having sex" and "no, you can't get pregnant from sitting on a toilet seat a boy used" were both pretty common sorts of things we had to tell folks.

SolaceQuantumOP7y ago

Do you have proof that societal pressure via shaming results in systematic changes the way you’re describing? From what I remember, there are studies regarding the shaming of women and bodily image that doesnt seem to correlate shaming for misbehavior with better behavior (Ie. Eating less).

zeroname7y ago

That's a bit of a special case, because shaming creates stress, while people with an eating disorder eat to reduce stress.

Otherwise, I think it's self-evident. There's many behaviors that would've been socially unacceptable a hundred years ago, which today are accepted and far more common. For a somewhat related example, consider inter-racial or (to some degree) inter-religious marriages.

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golergka7y ago· 2 in thread

Shaming is education. It creates a very strong cultural and emotional tie to knowledge, motivating people to act in a certain way.

If we lived on a planet where every person was a rational, level-headed adult, lectures and books would be enough of an education. Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.

darpa_escapee7y ago

Shaming creates pariahs. Shaming gives others the incentive to ignore, blame, shun, harm and not help those who are shamed.

America has a long, ugly history of shaming single mothers, sexual abuse victims, adulterers and interracial and non-heterosexual relationships. I don't think that we should encourage more of it.

> Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.

Would you use the word 'paternalistic' to describe your views on an ideal society?

SolaceQuantumOP7y ago

This post does not address the other reasons I have stated.

empath757y ago

Also, because they're like _human beings_ who need a family like everyone else does.

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8 comments · 3 top-level

zeroname7y ago· 3 in thread

> Because chances are people who are systematically impoverished are also not properly educated on how to exercise birth control in effective manners

Societal pressure, on the other hand, does have some of the desired effect, even if it's not a "nice thing" like education.

ceejayoz7y ago

> This is not true at all. Everyone knows how not to have children...

I used to help moderate a LiveJournal community called "amipregnant" and this is a laughably false assertion.

"Yes, you can get pregnant your first time having sex" and "no, you can't get pregnant from sitting on a toilet seat a boy used" were both pretty common sorts of things we had to tell folks.

SolaceQuantumOP7y ago

zeroname7y ago

That's a bit of a special case, because shaming creates stress, while people with an eating disorder eat to reduce stress.

1 more reply

golergka7y ago· 2 in thread

Shaming is education. It creates a very strong cultural and emotional tie to knowledge, motivating people to act in a certain way.

darpa_escapee7y ago

Shaming creates pariahs. Shaming gives others the incentive to ignore, blame, shun, harm and not help those who are shamed.

America has a long, ugly history of shaming single mothers, sexual abuse victims, adulterers and interracial and non-heterosexual relationships. I don't think that we should encourage more of it.

> Sadly, most of the people are irrational and emotional; if you want to steer them towards better life decisions, for their sake as well as society's, shame is a very good tool.

Would you use the word 'paternalistic' to describe your views on an ideal society?

SolaceQuantumOP7y ago

This post does not address the other reasons I have stated.

empath757y ago

Also, because they're like _human beings_ who need a family like everyone else does.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse