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0 pointsjerf8y ago0 comments

Well, I can't do a full list, but:

Memory non-locality. On modern systems, thrashing through RAM just kills you on performance. I don't know that you have to hand full control over to the programmer, but if you're randomly flinging values on the heap everywhere (a.k.a. "hash tables"), you're gonna hit a wall long before you get to "C performance".

For JITs, any time the JIT has the ability to make an assumption, but then you break it. The obvious one is "this function always returns an int", which the JIT can nicely optimize, but if once you ever return a string, the JIT will have to do something to deoptimize that case again, possibly permanently. More subtly, things like "returning an object that always has these three keys that map to these three values of a certain type", which a JIT can optimize to a struct under the hood, until you change a type or add a field for a particular call. Just in general, any assumption the JIT can make for performance that you might break in a function. You should generally program your performance-sensitive JS as if it were statically typed, even if it isn't.

Indirection for the user's convenience; one of the reasons CPython is sooo slooooow is that there's a ton of indirection going on. For the code x.y(), you can change x by directly overriding "y" on the specific x you are using, or it can be set at the class level, or it can be set by any of the superclasses, or the dot operator may be a function that does arbitrary things up to and including arbitrary mutation of whatever it gets its hands on, etc., plus even without overridding getattr there's this whole "property" thing, plus it could be a __slot__, and I'm pretty sure I'm missing at least one thing here, and CPython is hopping through all these hoops for every such lookup. The fact that "x.y()" translates to dozens or hundreds of C lines of code is what Python so convenient, but at the same time, what makes it so slow, too. I understand the value of being able to override things; I question the need of dynamic scripting languages to provide so many places to override things.

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6 comments · 2 top-level

blattimwind8y ago· 2 in thread

> I don't know that you have to hand full control over to the programmer, but if you're randomly flinging values on the heap everywhere (a.k.a. "hash tables"), you're gonna hit a wall long before you get to "C performance".

Rule of Python: Everything is at least two pointers away.

> and CPython is hopping through all these hoops for every such lookup.

Actually CPython has a cache for that. This becomes apparent if you improperly replace methods in the class dictionary.

I think the bane of Python specifically is a bit different. It's not so much that it's very dynamic, because JITs can clearly deal with that. It's that CPython exposes all kinds of interpreter state that's off-limits in other languages, which makes it way harder to JIT. In JavaScript there are at most a handful ways how you can mutate a prototype, but in CPython you don't have enough fingers to count them, even if you only consider Python and not the C API.

jerfOP8y ago

"Actually CPython has a cache for that."

My apologies for my unclarity. In my head, "hopping through all these hoops" included using caching, but that is completely unclear. It is true that there is a lot of caching being done, because it would simply be unusable if there isn't. But it is also true that there is still a lot of work to do for "x.y()", even when all caches are used fully.

blattimwind8y ago

Yes... and most of it is even part of stable APIs.

arghwhat8y ago· 2 in thread

I'd like to add: Don't define your array as nothing but a hashmap with strings as array indexes, with two assignment hooks: One that on assignment updates that sets length = max(length, ToUint32(assigned key)), and one on "length" assignment that iterates over all keys in the hashmap, and for those that can be parsed as uint32's, delete those that have a numerical value larger than the value assigned to length.

That is how JavaScript "Array" objects work. Array indexes are coerced to a strings, as they are for all objects.

For the curious, here is full definition from ECMA-262 1st edition, which describe what browsers currently implement (https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-S..., page 65):

Array objects give special treatment to a certain class of property names. A property name P (in the form of a string value) is an array index if and only if ToString(ToUint32(P)) is equal to P and ToUint32(P) is not equal to 232−1. Every Array object has a length property whose value is always an integer with positive sign and less than 232. It is always the case that the length property is numerically greater than the name of every property whose name is an array index; whenever a property of an Array object is created or changed, other properties are adjusted as necessary to maintain this invariant. Specifically, whenever a property is added whose name is an array index, the length property is changed, if necessary, to be one more than the numeric value of that array index; and whenever the length property is changed, every property whose name is an array index whose value is not smaller than the new length is automatically deleted. This constraint applies only to properties of the Array object itself and is unaffected by length or array index properties that may be inherited from its prototype.

vanderZwan8y ago

> That is how JavaScript "Array" objects work. Array indexes are coerced to a strings, as they are for all objects.

Well, according to the spec. All modern VMs make optimisations for small integers, which is allowed as long as the behaviour is in accordance to the spec.

arghwhat8y ago

Of course, but the language spec severely limit what optimizations can be done.

For example, V8 will happily give you a proper array if certain criteria is met, but it must always be ready for you trying to index it with a string, which means that it must attempt to parse the string as a numeric value. This means deoptimization checks, or in the worst case, a non-optimized array.

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