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0 pointsnextos8y ago0 comments

I think biggest ones are i) nix command is a bit complex, but it's getting redesigned [1] & ii) nixpkg definitions sometimes contain a lot of cruft.

I've found Guix and GuixSD, which are a GNU-blessed Guile Scheme-based reimplementation of Nix and NixOS, more aesthetically pleasing. Quite simple and elegant in fact.

The major differences are that Guix DSLs are implemented on top of Scheme, whereas Nix uses a custom DSL. Furthermore, Guix avoids systemd and uses GNU herd instead.

[1] https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/779

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16 comments · 4 top-level

gcoda8y ago· 5 in thread

For my practical reasons I can not use pure GNU distributions, I am not aware of easy community way to re use packages for other distro or something hacky like that. Not everyone have brainpower and time to build custom packages for rare distro, it is a shame, I really like Guix. NixOS got some recepies for using not 100% libre software.

jitl8y ago

This is also what keeps me away from Guix. I get that there are third-party repos with non-free software, but using a fringe package of a fringe packager is too far for me.

There’s no good choice here: Nix package definitions and tools are inscrutable and user-hostile; and the alternative Guix is burden with GNU/free software zealotry and GPL.

A somewhat comparable third option is Habitat, from Chef. It also has a pure build system, a package source, and pure, discrete environments. But it’s also got a bunch of service orchestration parts...

Hopefully the Nix redesign will make the tools more palatable for mortals.

nextosOP8y ago

What kind of non-free tools are you missing from Guix?

The only notable omission is linux, as Guix is based on linux-libre instead. But changing this is a matter of 1 LOC.

1 more reply

davexunit8y ago

Including non-free software in Guix would defeat the goal of a 100% bit-for-bit reproducible distribution. Non-free software is incompatible with Guix both ethically and technically.

tilpner8y ago

I was told guix has some support for importing normal Nix packages, but I don't know how well it works in practice.

https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-...

nextosOP8y ago

There are repos around packaging tons of non-free (mainly scientific) software for Guix.

jitl8y ago· 3 in thread

Guix uses it’s own init system implemented in Scheme: Sheperd (https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/)

Herd/Hurd is a kernel, not an init system, although since systemd is Linux only, using a different kernel implies using a non-systemd init system.

agumonkey8y ago

Shepherd is not a kernel, Hurd is, and shepherd page mentions a relation, that dmd/shepherd was developped closely to Hurd but it not the same thing.

nextosOP8y ago

Sure, I wrote herd not Hurd!

herd is the commandname of Shepherd client:

https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html

1 more reply

xelxebar8y ago

Nitpick---but while we're here---Hurd technically refers to the set of (microkernel) servers. The microkernel itself is Mach. In spirit, Mach and the Hurd servers together provide what the Linux kernel provides monolithically.

Anyway... :)

pmoriarty8y ago· 2 in thread

One of the major turn-offs for me in regards to Nix was that it uses a ton of bash scripts.

Guix's use of Scheme is a lot more elegant and powerful, and a lot less hacky than bash.

sly0108y ago

You could use nix the same way guix uses scheme. The lowest level operation in nix is not "run-this-bash-script" but "run- this-executable-with-these-arguments".

davexunit8y ago

But even still you are mixing languages, so the problem remains. The issue is not that Nix uses Bash, but that Nix uses different languages for the host-side and build-side. AFAIK people aren't writing the build-side code in the Nix language, and I'm not sure if it even has the features necessary to do it. Guix unifies the different layers of code execution with a single language, and using a Lisp enabled that design.

For a complete explanation of this design, see the "Code Staging in GNU Guix" paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1709.00833

2 more replies

k__8y ago· 2 in thread

When will the redesign be merged?

It's over a year that I first read about Nix and they talked about the redesign.

grhmc8y ago

The redesign is merged and available via `nix-shell -p nixUnstable`. It isn't so much an issue of merging, but calling the new version stable. We're working on it. No definite timetable though.

k__8y ago

Ah, cool!

Are there docs for the usage after "nix-shell -p nixUnstable"?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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16 comments · 4 top-level

gcoda8y ago· 5 in thread

jitl8y ago

This is also what keeps me away from Guix. I get that there are third-party repos with non-free software, but using a fringe package of a fringe packager is too far for me.

There’s no good choice here: Nix package definitions and tools are inscrutable and user-hostile; and the alternative Guix is burden with GNU/free software zealotry and GPL.

Hopefully the Nix redesign will make the tools more palatable for mortals.

nextosOP8y ago

What kind of non-free tools are you missing from Guix?

The only notable omission is linux, as Guix is based on linux-libre instead. But changing this is a matter of 1 LOC.

1 more reply

davexunit8y ago

Including non-free software in Guix would defeat the goal of a 100% bit-for-bit reproducible distribution. Non-free software is incompatible with Guix both ethically and technically.

tilpner8y ago

I was told guix has some support for importing normal Nix packages, but I don't know how well it works in practice.

https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-...

nextosOP8y ago

There are repos around packaging tons of non-free (mainly scientific) software for Guix.

jitl8y ago· 3 in thread

Guix uses it’s own init system implemented in Scheme: Sheperd (https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/)

Herd/Hurd is a kernel, not an init system, although since systemd is Linux only, using a different kernel implies using a non-systemd init system.

agumonkey8y ago

Shepherd is not a kernel, Hurd is, and shepherd page mentions a relation, that dmd/shepherd was developped closely to Hurd but it not the same thing.

nextosOP8y ago

Sure, I wrote herd not Hurd!

herd is the commandname of Shepherd client:

https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html

1 more reply

xelxebar8y ago

Anyway... :)

pmoriarty8y ago· 2 in thread

One of the major turn-offs for me in regards to Nix was that it uses a ton of bash scripts.

Guix's use of Scheme is a lot more elegant and powerful, and a lot less hacky than bash.

sly0108y ago

You could use nix the same way guix uses scheme. The lowest level operation in nix is not "run-this-bash-script" but "run- this-executable-with-these-arguments".

davexunit8y ago

For a complete explanation of this design, see the "Code Staging in GNU Guix" paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1709.00833

2 more replies

k__8y ago· 2 in thread

When will the redesign be merged?

It's over a year that I first read about Nix and they talked about the redesign.

grhmc8y ago

The redesign is merged and available via `nix-shell -p nixUnstable`. It isn't so much an issue of merging, but calling the new version stable. We're working on it. No definite timetable though.

k__8y ago

Ah, cool!

Are there docs for the usage after "nix-shell -p nixUnstable"?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse