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0 pointsquuquuquu8y ago0 comments

wouldn't a halfway decent solution to this be to lower property tax, lessen zoning laws and fines, and otherwise do things that will bring down property/building prices?

This would allow those who currently rent to be able to buy land, put a manufactured or temporary lodging on that land, and live there legally and cheaply, compared to a traditional home in a densely populated area.

It seems in my opinion that supply is artificially constrained, and that is why Airbnb is so popular.

0 comments

8 comments · 2 top-level

branchless8y ago· 3 in thread

This is utterly wrong. Taxing property encourages efficient use and keeps speculative hoarding down which reduces prices.

Prices are set by credit, credit is set by the ability to service debt. Property taxes inhibit the ability to pay interest to banks on larger loans.

AirBnB is popular because they are illegally avoiding taxes which makes right now for an easy win for rentiers. People doing airBnB don't have a higher calling to supply temporary accommodation to the masses. They are doing it for the money. If they could make more juggling fruit they would. And they push up prices for families looking to live near schools.

edit: can't post below b/c HN hates people criticizing rentiers.

Terrible example. Texas in which Dallas resides has the highest property taxes. Texas taxes land not labour more than most states.

quuquuquuOP8y ago

Since the 1950s, property taxes and home prices have rapidly outpaced inflation, wages have stagnated, and work remains centralized in high cost areas.

Many people can not afford 500-700k mortgages, 13k per year property tax, 5 types of income taxes (fed state nyc med ss), transportation costs, etc.

Maybe land is being used efficiently, but it sure isn't affordable in the NY NJ CT area.

Is the solution to that to say "sorry, we have higher bidders"...

... or "well we do have some unused land over there that we can rezone for free to allow you to put a temporary home on it"

sien8y ago

But then you've driven up the cost of the housing with tax.

AirBnB hosts are paying property taxes and if AirBnB drives up value it's driving up property tax.

Speculative hoarding only works if there is artificial scarcity driven by overly restrictive zoning. Speculating in Dallas hasn't resulted in high profits.

Actually, editing in response to your comments. It looks like high property taxes in conjunction with low zoning regulation works. And that AirBnB has little to do with housing prices generally.

That's an interesting point that comes out of this discussion.

Rather than calling people 'leeches' and other names perhaps reasonable discussion could help.

kspaans8y ago

Higher taxes generally reduce property prices. As the carrying costs get higher, only those who can make efficient use of property (or who really want to live there) can justify the payments. In other words, it reduces the profits of income properties (be they long term rentals or short term rentals), which reduces the demand for the properties as a source of income, thus decreasing the cost (in spite of the higher taxes!) for people who want to live there. It also reduces speculative holding of property: again because the taxes paid while the speculator waits for prices to rise make it less likely that the speculator will profit, so they will go elsewhere looking for profits.

majjam8y ago· 3 in thread

I disagree. People want to live in cities for the jobs and opportunities they offer. It is very difficult to increase the housing stock within cities even with the measures you list, this scarcity of housing is made worse because landlords buy up flats turning them into AirBnb properties, preventing people from living in them. This results in the hollowing out of cities so they become tourist resorts. Barcelona has had a particularly hard time with this.

quuquuquuOP8y ago

I do see your perspective, as my solution would lead to sprawl, long commute times, and increasing difficulty to find work outside of the city center.

Unfortunately, while it is a solution to put more people into the city center, it becomes difficult to make sure that people who are purchasing property aren't doing it for rent-seeking.

I think this problem will be tough to enforce/fix.

I guess the only real solution is busting up office/industry centralization somehow!

isostatic8y ago

You'd think if anyone could decentralise work, it would be silicon valley, yet I understand rents in that area are as high as anything in manhattan.

sien8y ago

It's quite possible. Look at Texas housing affordability. Then look at the growth in population. Texas has lots of jobs and affordable housing.

The Demographia Survey makes it clear. High restrictions to building. High cost.

http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

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8 comments · 2 top-level

branchless8y ago· 3 in thread

This is utterly wrong. Taxing property encourages efficient use and keeps speculative hoarding down which reduces prices.

Prices are set by credit, credit is set by the ability to service debt. Property taxes inhibit the ability to pay interest to banks on larger loans.

edit: can't post below b/c HN hates people criticizing rentiers.

Terrible example. Texas in which Dallas resides has the highest property taxes. Texas taxes land not labour more than most states.

quuquuquuOP8y ago

Since the 1950s, property taxes and home prices have rapidly outpaced inflation, wages have stagnated, and work remains centralized in high cost areas.

Many people can not afford 500-700k mortgages, 13k per year property tax, 5 types of income taxes (fed state nyc med ss), transportation costs, etc.

Maybe land is being used efficiently, but it sure isn't affordable in the NY NJ CT area.

Is the solution to that to say "sorry, we have higher bidders"...

... or "well we do have some unused land over there that we can rezone for free to allow you to put a temporary home on it"

sien8y ago

But then you've driven up the cost of the housing with tax.

AirBnB hosts are paying property taxes and if AirBnB drives up value it's driving up property tax.

Speculative hoarding only works if there is artificial scarcity driven by overly restrictive zoning. Speculating in Dallas hasn't resulted in high profits.

Actually, editing in response to your comments. It looks like high property taxes in conjunction with low zoning regulation works. And that AirBnB has little to do with housing prices generally.

That's an interesting point that comes out of this discussion.

Rather than calling people 'leeches' and other names perhaps reasonable discussion could help.

kspaans8y ago

majjam8y ago· 3 in thread

quuquuquuOP8y ago

I do see your perspective, as my solution would lead to sprawl, long commute times, and increasing difficulty to find work outside of the city center.

Unfortunately, while it is a solution to put more people into the city center, it becomes difficult to make sure that people who are purchasing property aren't doing it for rent-seeking.

I think this problem will be tough to enforce/fix.

I guess the only real solution is busting up office/industry centralization somehow!

isostatic8y ago

You'd think if anyone could decentralise work, it would be silicon valley, yet I understand rents in that area are as high as anything in manhattan.

sien8y ago

It's quite possible. Look at Texas housing affordability. Then look at the growth in population. Texas has lots of jobs and affordable housing.

The Demographia Survey makes it clear. High restrictions to building. High cost.

http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse