The good news is that the enterprise sales folks know all the best restaurants in town. Cocktail bars, too.
Or, like it happens in smaller B2B deals, they'll say "Yes!", and then after the meeting go to the dev team and say: "we just signed a contract in which we promised feature X; you need to implement it in two weeks".
This hits wayyyy to close to home.
I thought it was always "in the bag, last couple of redlines to get sorted, but that'll be sorted by the end of the week, no worries."
But yeah, 2 weeks to implement, then it sits there whilst they sort out some overlooked complication
FWIW, not all enterprise software vendors do that. We don't, for example.
Just last night I was running through a demo for a prospective customer, and my contact asked about some new features. The answer was "we have some of that partially implemented, another is trivial, and another one is going to take some research. Ballpark estimate is probably 6 weeks or so to do all that".
Of course maybe it's different when you're a founder who has spent his entire career as a developer and got sick of that exact bullshit routine. :-)
If I'm right, this means you're selling to software companies, or companies doing in-house development?
As much bullshit as there is in selling software to software companies, it seems to be so much worse outside of this. Enterprise vendors selling to non-technical firms seem far more willing to promise the moon and stars on the basis that they can hand-wave it as "a job for the software guys". Whereas I think most devs hear that claim and translate to "six months of work", opening up a bit more room to do business by being honest. Congrats on not taking the common approach!
One of these things is not like the other.
I also do something like this this when choosing a new ISP. I call the support line instead of the sales line. Somehow ISPs can answer sales enquiries instantly while support calls take 45 minutes to answer. This strategy has led me to use some of the smaller (slightly more expensive) ISPs, because I know they'll answer almost straight away.
This contrasts greatly with my experience calling any UK ISP.
The only other phone support I've experienced that has come close to that was (the now sadly defunct) Icesave, which I believe shared their phone support with Newcastle building society.
They have technical people running support who talk to customers as peers. Also you can use IRC if you don't like the phone.
Yay for monopoly!
I did ask him if they recommended particular makes of plumbing fittings but he told me their company policy was never to make recommendations :-(
Buying laptops is really scary that way. Half the time you get some shit yuo have to outlive, and the other half it's fairly decent. Only once or twice have I heard people hit the jackpot.
I've found the quickest way to get a Comcast rep on the line is to select the menu option that states "I'm having trouble submitting my bill payment." :)
I'd add (and the author mentions this) that most system integrators have a bias (whether financially driven or not) towards particular software. That makes it challenging to assess "is this the best software or what they pushing me to"?
I don't see how this is that much different from buying from the vendors.
For me, I usually take a vendor's customer page and start calling people myself. I also reach out to my network to see if anyone has an opinion. And if I can find a list of companies using the software (vs. who the company says they work with) then I call/reach out to them as well.
Some of us (I work for an SI) actually find the correct solution for the problem. We use all 4 major players, build our own stuff when appropriate, and would look at other solutions if the opportunity arrises, we love what we do.
Let me know if you're still looking for a solution and I'd be happy to give you another opinion.
If you're not huge, the integrator may be your best option as the OEM may not be able to support you. This all depends on your vertical, location, etc.
OEMs with market power like Cisco treat integrators like mini Cisco salesmen -- you must go with the first one you registers the deal with Cisco to get the best backend price. In other markets like identity, the SIs traditionally have been more subject matter experts who know the products. Cloud changes a lot of this stuff on the infrastructure side as your often held hostage to whatever your provider of choice uses.
Most companies don't want to pay that cost, so ask SIs to make recommendations in their RFPs for implementation services. Not only are you going to get bias from pitching the software they're best positioned to implement, but the requirements gathering process is never as good because a) companies won't share as much during a competitive procurement and b) SIs won't invest the time to do all that work for free.
Standalone vendor analyses are another ball of wax, as SIs with true experience with all the leading products will give you great advice. You have to make sure you get the right people. And then you have to walk to the line of "objectivity": either you exclude the evaluation vendor from implementation (so SIs won't bid because they want the more lucrative SI work), or you give the evaluating SI a leg up over competition in the competitive implementation process. You also have to come to terms with some duplication of requirements gathering if you have different evaluation and implementation vendors.
The other consideration is that the "best" software is completely subjective. Software X may have more features out of the box, but has 2x support costs. Software Y may lag on a particular feature you want, but is the market leader with better integrations. This is part of proper software evaluation.
I mean I'm sure there is solid economy theoretic reasoning in favour of RFPs in general but I've never understood why anyone would want to do things that way.
The way I hear it, you're basically saying, "Hey, from a group of people who are willing to work for free – I'll pick the one willing to cut the most corners!" Quality just cannot arise from that kind of process.
My ultimate goal would be, if possible, to ask one of the SI's professional services developers out to lunch and pick their brain in an informal setting. Someone who has been there for a couple years and has seen some things and is ready to talk.
One of the challenges with the SI model is because people go to the vendor, they give you a lot of business and help keep payroll going, so you never want to badmouth them in public. But you don't have to badmouth anyone to say, "We think for your needs, this is the best solution." Problem is, you're not allowed to say even that when the lead comes from the vendor.
Perhaps the best question is, "Who has the best developer experience?" IMHO, that's the best sign of a quality product. Granted, still might not have the features you need out of the box like a bigger, older vendor. You need to weigh all pros and cons.
Problem is, if we are a minority of folks thinking this way, it won't make sense financially for manufacturers. What's happening with the buy-and-dispose generation is that nobody really cares about quality anymore - which is why the market is going in this way.
The manufacturer warranty is just as likely to be a financial product as it is to reflect product quality.
Manufacturers' warranties are only so useful; a lot of companies make you jump through hoops to actually make use of them. If the product isn't that expensive, you'll end up paying so much in shipping that it just isn't worth bothering with when you can go buy a new one. And you always take the chance that they'll simply deny your claim and then your recourse is to sue them (not worth it for anything under a few thousand dollars) and to post bad reviews.
Funniest thing about it is that as a sales rep I sucked, but once I got moved into repair, I was absolutely destroying our sales team in sales often by 4x their best rep without even trying.
There were a couple of Black Fridays where the store made all computer sales take place at the repair center because of it.
I find this incredibly interesting because it's telling us something about how to make people perform at their best. I believe I'm the same way regarding making pitches from a repair bench.
Do you know why it happened that way to you? I'd share my hypothesis but I don't want to prime you.
I wasn't expected to sell anymore either, so my approach to dealing with people in the store could be different too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1pe2bd/iama_vacuum_re...
In truth though, a lot of enterprise software sucks and it sucks to support but there are usually few better options. Often velocity is the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priority so it's easier to pickup some shitty software and spend some engineering resources to 'make it work' than it is to try to internally sell investing the resources needed to build a better bespoke solution.
I got a full education on washers, including a lot of industry dirty laundry.
I believe we're in a golden age for self-repair (particularly with YouTube videos), but I keep hearing about how everything is throwaway. Just the other week I repaired an iPhone 3GS we had been using as a baby monitor until it was dropped, for $4 (including shipping!) to replace the screen. That's amazing!
For those that do a Google search, and buy some parts on eBay (although I got an obscure a/c part via Amazon Prime), it's never been easier to repair your devices.
[1]: http://ifixit.org/right [2]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w [3]: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPjp41qeXe1o_lp1US9TpWA
Food mixer - resin washer instead of metal, without tools to machine a purpose fit washer is irrepairable.
TV - 4 years old, needed new main board, nothing at less than 50% cost of a brand new (better) TV. No parts from named manufacturer (re-badged).
Kettle - plastic in switch, clearly a weak point, suspect it was designed in, double thickness and the kettle would probably go forever. 3D print would fix, epoxy glue kept detaching.
Multimeter - battery flat, no compartment. One triangle security screw, one stripped head. Had to mangle the case to change the battery.
Mobile phone - Acer, case impossible to open without damaging: screws + one-way plastic security tabs. Just screws or a redesigned tab would make it repairable. No 1st party battery for sale of course.
Lawnmower - push mower can't detach drive for blades as they've used circlips on rods where bolts would have served. Need to buy circlips pliers, if clips break replacements not available.
Rechargeable shaver/trimmer - battery soldered in, shell glued shut. Battery is non-standard cells. Plenty of room for a battery compartment FWIW.
With more popular items where company hasn't actively hobbled the repairability then I agree, information to make repairs is often widely available.
Aside: I'm building a mental list of home items designed to fail too - like all plastic dustpans having a narrowing of the handle at the stress point; they all are thinnest at that point and all break at that point. We could probably cut the demand to 10% with a cm^3 of extra plastic.
They're often service guys with a penchant for showmanship. They love what they do and genuinely want to be helpful, they'll even play techno music over the boring parts.
I troubleshot and replaced my dryer's drum by following a youtube video. I had been expecting it to be a nightmare job, but it was remarkably low-stress after seeing someone do it on youtube and finding the parts online.
After doing this more than a few times, it quickly becomes easier as one gets familiar with how things are put together and where to find parts. Espresso machines, coffee grinders, monitors, washer/dryers, radios, automotive stuff, PC's and even laptops... none of this stuff is rocket science to repair with a bit of patience and study. More folks should try it.
The reason we're talking about throwaway economy is because quite often, the parts that fail are not available in any reasonable quantity (phone screens, appliance motherboards), and paying for repair (or acquiring them yourself and doing the repair on your own) costs about as much as a new device. At which point most people rightfully ask, why bother?
Also, when comparing to 1960s - 1980s, one has to remember that it's not just that the devices were simpler then. They also often came with technical manuals, and they were intended to be home-repairable. OTOH manufacturers today seriously screw up repairability even when not necessary. I get that screens are best made as fully-integrated parts, but compare e.g. Kindle 3 Keyboard, which is as close as you get to swappable screen (pry it open, screw out some screws, pull the screen out...) vs. devices which are internally glued together, so that trying to take it apart risks destroying some components.
Big trend is consolidation in the industry. Whirlpool, Maytag, and Kitchenaid are all the same company now. For dishwashers (and I got this info recently), repairman said they all have the same motor and core components, which is the most important. They differ on the control panel, aesthetics, and price. He also said that LG dishwashers have a problem with hard water, which is problematic in SoCal.
BTW, this was a call for a dishwasher problem on a Kitchenaid my brother bought used. The door kept popping open during washing (just enough to stop the cycle), and he said the problem was that the frame was slightly bent, probably during transport. My brother got a great deal buying a matched set of appliances used (you nearly always do), but sadly there was nothing he could do for a bent frame and it had to be ditched.
For washing machines, the guy said "Buttons and knobs, the simpler the better. No electronics. When these things have problems, it's always the electronic control panel, which is expensive to replace." He also suggested Whirlpool and Maytag, so I went with Whirlpool since again, same company, cheaper price.
Some years ago, a vacuum cleaner shop explained that everyone is racing to put out a lighter vacuum, and hence they switched from metal gearing and components to plastic. This greatly diminishes their lifespan. He had a number of used models he personally serviced and felt good about selling used. Afraid I forget the model he was really excited about, but again, your local vacuum shop will likely have something.
And thanks to all the nice comments, this really made my day!
Unfortunately everything is getting more complex. Even my dirt cheap "buttons and knobs" washer no longer has a batch size knob, instead incorporating some sort of sensor that determines the "optimal" water level.
You might be indirectly referencing this site (and article):
https://recraigslist.com/2015/10/they-used-to-last-50-years/ (ffs - just saw this link was posted below)
...which essentially says the same thing, but in more detail.
> For washing machines, the guy said
Another thing: Stay away from front loaders (unless health or other reasons prevent it) - the door seal always goes, and makes a huge mess when it does.
> Some years ago, a vacuum cleaner shop explained that everyone is racing to put out a lighter vacuum, and hence they switched from metal gearing and components to plastic.
When I was in high school, my friend's mom had an old Kirby upright bag vacuum - probably dated from the 1950s. All steel, everywhere. Sounded like a jet engine when it was running. But the thing could pick up the moon if you positioned it properly.
One day, being the dumbasses we were, we decided "hey, let's put it to the test!". So we started vacuuming things up. Bits of plastic, legos, pennies, washers, nails - all of it, no problem. There had to be something that would stop it dead (we had no clue what we'd do if it did die - like I said, we were dumbasses)...hey, how about a roll of quarters!
It made the most horrendous noise imaginable. The lights flickered in the home as the motor struggled. But it kept going. Eventually, the whole thing was sucked up into the vacuum. No damage to anything in it, and it continued to run and work like always...
I'm pretty sure that old Kirby is still running somewhere.
His mom never knew (we weren't so dumb as to do this when she was home, though)!
Some carefully applied force might've fixed it. We used to do that with cars too.
Previously discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909365
This is usually cost escalators, a really poor deployment and management story, an upsold incomplete product or just a wall of lies.
Also refuse to buy a license until you trial it on your own kit.
Enterprise hardware and software seems to have a fundamental difference to the original post: interoperability. With a washing machine, I don't care how well it interoperates with my tumble dryer, or my cooker. I just care how well it works within itself.
Enterprise hardware and software on the other hand may well have the features listed (so the marketing isn't actually lying); but if it doesn't interoperate well, then that doesn't help me with the existing kit I've got. The enterprise approach that can both say "Greenfield deployment? Here's the absolute best" and "Brownfield deployment? Let's see what you've got and what we can reuse" /without bias/ would be the ideal solution.
Reverse engineering of motive. If it were only that simple.
Although this 'business response' could be correct I wouldn't assume that is the case as if the repair shop has no axe to grind or other reason to make that statement.
Could have also lost their authorization or access to parts to repair GE appliances. Or perhaps they aren't listed on the approved list of repair shops (could be for various reasons).
Way back when you used to buy a fair amount of products that were typically repaired there were certain vendors that the manufacturer shuttled the most repair work to. The other shops could get access to parts however it wasn't typically cost effective for them to do so.
Aside, not wanting to derail the comments: When I say "invented stuff" I mean like how Apple switched to Intel chips, because "the industry" got together and said that if Apple didn't, they would make a new internet just for Apple. There was also the line about all Apple developers being jealous of Microsoft's success, so they were the ones developing all the viruses and malware to take down Microsoft's OS, and there were fewer and fewer of these developers because they were all being put in jail with the Linux developers, who were busy doing the same thing.
One day, a Mac-based publishing shop foolishly decided that they needed our help. They got a lecture on how Microsoft Publisher was the industry standard and they should just get with the times. They never called back.
Incredibly enough, 10 years on, the repair shop is still in business and hasn't been sued.
Particular context, in which I have to explain this often: when needing advice about which computer/phone/appliance to buy, never ever ask the salesman in the very store you'll be buying in. It's literally their job to give you bad advice - to suggest a deal good for the store, not for you.