Ask HN: "Rockstar" job listings, yay or nay?

I always groan when I see it in job listings. The handful of real "rockstar" programmers don't need to scan job boards.

I'm guessing what you're likely to attract with this kind of post is a lot of arrogant code cowboys that don't play well with others.

Anyone here have advice for those non-technical people who know they need a great programmer on their team?

For me "Rockstar" is now a shibboleth.

If you have to call yourself, your company, your product or your programmers "rockstars" then none of you are real rockstars. If you have to ask "what's different about rockstar's lifestyles compared to the small people?" then you definitely have no idea what you're even talking about.

It's just like being called a "hacker", or a "gangster" or similar. You either have legit street cred, and thereby are automatically included amongst an elite, meritocratic subculture, or you don't.

Personally I find that using the words "rockstar" or "ninja" makes the company that placed the ad sound like a bunch of immature amateurs.

If you are shooting for the kind of people who aspire to be rockstars (i.e. teenagers, mostly?), why not?

I think the alleged appeal of a job listed as being "for rockstars" is a certain amount of automatic respect once you get there. No one wants to go and be some day trader's or insurance adjuster's software lackey, so the idea of being the 'star' of the company is very appealing.

The problem is that this is inherently completely bullshit. Most companies are driven by sales of a service or non-software product, which makes you less important than the people directly responsible for making and selling the product. Even if you're a developer centric company, there are so many 'stars' that there are none, so it's more like being part of the choir that accompanies a rock band (every 10 years or so, when that's cool again). It's pretty nice, but you're certainly going to be held accountable for destroying your hotel room.

In my opinion, the only things that can be appealing about a job listing are technologies used (if they're telling the truth and not just spitting out buzzwords) and location.

On the flip side, if you want me to think your culture is cool and fun (as the 'rockstar' listing aims to do), you have to make sure that every person I meet from your company (or a vast majority) are cool and fun. Otherwise, no amount of buzzwords is going to attract me to your position.

If they let me show up with massive hangovers, allow me to drink at work, don't care that I smoke inside and miss half of my deadlines. Sure. Otherwise, stop fucking using that term.

Great thing I'm my own boss, I guess.

I got a rockstar job offer from some time ago.

I responded to the recruiter to ask if drugs, groupies and obscene amounts of alcohol were involved. And also if I could destroy a hotel room or two.

I then explained to them that there is nothing rockstar about software development and that I would rather be approached in a more professional way.

I quickly got a followup email back from the recruiter's boss saying that they made up the rockstar bit and that the client had nothing to do with it. He did apologize and said he would love to have a serious talk.

I wrote about it at length here: http://thesethings.posterous.com/rapping-grandmas-and-ninja-...

Short version: It was initially a helpful construct to suggest that:

* Your potential place of work was not stuffy. That the applicant could seek relief from their horrible bank job. (This signal is now false given that boring bank jobs say "rockstar." :D )

* The applicant will be respected and treated well (like a rockstar), not a codemonkey.

Nowadays, "rockstar" implies the applicant must be all-skilled, all-talented, with no burden on the potential place of work to live up to anything suggested by use of the word :)

The use of "Rockstar" reeks of self-importance on the part of the hiring company - obnoxious. I've seen it so many times it motivated me to write the following Job Ad:

http://blog.submitmy.info/2010/02/wanted-the-worlds-best-can...

I personally find it to be slightly negative because a) The job ads where I initially saw it about 2-3 years ago were generally for rockstar interns ready to work in a microscopic paycheck. aka - everyone here at McFranchise is a manager but gets paid minimum wage. b) It is now used by companies like Intel. Any company who wants to hire a rockstar and insists on doing a background + drug test is not cool in my book.

I think that this phrase was moderately useful when it first appeared, as it indicated both a certain level of respect for the skills involved and a relaxed work environment. Unfortunately, it also became useless almost immediately afterwards due to companies jumping on the "We're cool too!" bandwagon.

My question is, are there other ways of indicating those qualities that won't be immediately copied by the "uncool" companies?

When I see a job posting looking for a "rock star" I immediately think "OK, but are you willing to pay for a rock star?" If the ad indicates that they are looking for skills way above average, they better be willing to pay way above average. Otherwise, it seems to me they either aren't sincere or are only really looking for a bargain.

In Lake Wobegon, all children are above average.

In the bay area, all programmers are rock stars.

I don't like to see such colloquialisms in job postings, but as someone who has done a fair amount of hiring in my career, I also don't want to see them on resumes or CVs unless you've worked for Rockstar Games or real Rockstars.

I wonder if these listings ever come with "rockstar" salaries. I doubt that the people who use this term is even prepared to offer 2x market rate.

I'm not a fan, but that's because it's overused. I feel the same way about "Ninja," although it does seem more appropriate for Software Development jobs.

One term from a job posting that I really liked was "best available athlete." It was for a business development type job, and it said to me that they were looking for talent over experience. Unfortunately, it turned out that they were looking for someone who could take on an entry level job at the company while also filling in for their soon to leave admin.

I guess the best way to determine what terms are effective an which are overused is to split test them somehow. Someone should build that kind of functionality into an Applicant Tracking System.

Put it another way: are you a rockstar business? If not, why would a rockstar want to work for you?

Do rockstars even have jobs? Probably they do in a way, but I could imagine that they don't see themselves as people who have jobs.

Well it's definitely becoming more common in job listings to say the least:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=rockstar&l=

It definitely turns me off to a job. But then maybe I'm just not a rockstar.

I find it ambiguous, but on the whole probably a good sign. A negative part is that it appeals to the needy ego. A postive aspect is that it maybe signals a knowledge of the Spolsky school of management, which is a clear improvement over average companies.

But it's not as informative as other signs. For example, programming language choices and transparency. In this regard, the most impressive company I know is Relevance:

http://thinkrelevance.com/

Other good companies include Freiheit and RethinkDB:

http://www.freiheit.com/tag/Jobs (note the google translator)

http://rethinkdb.com/jobs/

I am almost guaranteed to read the post if it has something like that, whereas I sometimes skip ones like "Application Developer II" or something lame like that. It's usually obvious from the rest of the post whether it's a phony HR ploy or a company truly searching for top talent (most of the time). And if so, I know that 1) they are willing to pay well, and 2) I'm going to get to work with other smart people. Sure, it's a cliche and sometimes abused, but so are lots of words, like agile, lean, software craftsman, etc. Just bc someone says it, I don't trust it 100%, but it's still sometimes useful to use it to convey an idea in a single word.

I think it's appropriate in terms of describing an attitude, but it is not so great at describing skills. "Ninja", "rockstar", "guru" and such tell me that they want somebody to show up who doesn't feel stress and is able to make the tough decisions needed to be made to make the thing happen. It also means you're willing to put up with a bit of cowboy mentality in return for exceptional performance.

Doesn't mean that the programmer is worth a damn. That's a different question. Confusion results when you confuse what's being said.

It also doesn't mean that a rockstar programmer is what you really need. But that's also a different question.

I think the actual position almost never lives up to such a breathless description.

Back when the economy was a bit more dire, I interviewed with a place that called itself "funky", with a team of "ninjas".

Turned out to be an accountancy software house with some typical line of business apps that needed to be ported to the web because a local web startup was eating them up for breakfast and converting their customers like crazy.

I hate the idea of the term "Rockstar," (or "Ninja") because it implies that by just showing up, you've already done your part; by extension, it implies that you don't need to improve.

I'd much rather see a job ad looking for a "Software Samurai," already possessed of great competency, but eager to learn new tricks and improve himself as a developer.

I'd never respond for an ad looking for a "Ninja" because I'm a software "Pirate" and we're natural enemies.

Take a look at this posting on Quora for a related discussion: http://www.quora.com/Do-the-terms-ninja-and-rockstar-come-of...

The general sentiment is that it is neo-corporate and shows a lack of understanding and lack of concern about substance of candidates.

I maintain a blacklist of recruiters who annoy me. Mostly it's the ones who call me up repeatedly, or who call me about ridiculously bad fits. However, I also keep a special section in that black list for any recruiter that uses the term "Rock Star" or "Ninja", and I openly mock the companies who use the term. I also find smugness later on when they fail, because they clearly were prima donnas trying to attract other prima donnas.