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0 pointsloup-vaillant9y ago0 comments

My point is, there is nothing wrong with pushing a slot machine's buttons, even if it is done in a way that defeats the RNG. The difference between this and counting cards in a game of Black Jack is, the RNG can easily be fixed to prevent this.

You provided it as an example of "organized crime", and doing so heavily suggests that it is wrong.

We tend to conflate "wrong" and "unlawful", and for good reason: the law is supposed to prevent wrong things from being committed. There are exceptions however, and this is one of them. I'd rather use another example if possible.

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orless9y ago

My argument is that even small organized crime groups were capabale of sophisticated operations so it's absolutely not far-fetched to assume that they may be able to implement end-to-end encryption apps. Whether this "organized crime" is "wrong" does not make much difference. It might be even easier to find people to implement it as not many would have moral issues.

Speaking of moral issues, cheating on casino is pretty much off limits on my personal moral compass. That the attack was possible within the normal mode of operation does not make it less of a fraud. Imagine if the casino would reverse-engineer a slot machine and find a way to abuse it within the normal mode of operation, making odds (even more) in their favor. That would be fraud, plain and simple, and I don't see why a player should be held to a different standard.

You are absolutely right, not everything unlawful is wrong. But I fail to see which benefit we as a society would have by allowing exploitation of technical deficiencies in slot machines for profit. It is a crime and it is wrong in my book.

loup-vaillantOP9y ago

OK, so our disagreement is very simple: exploiting the flaws of a slot machine is not cheating in my book. Neither is counting cards now that I think of it.

The rules for slot machines are ostensibly very simple. As long as you're only pushing the buttons that are supposed to be pushed without deteriorating them, you are acting within the rules of the slot machine, and as such cannot cheat.

The presence of hidden rules such as "don't push the buttons in this particular order and timing", or "don't push the buttons in a way that reliably causes you to win", are just silly and unfair. Especially considering casinos are exploiting gamblers' minds in the first place. Don't like slot machine exploiters? Fix your slot machines.

Likewise for counting cards: the player is merely acting upon information naturally gathered buy observation and play. Asking players not to act upon such information is intrusive —and unheard of in competitive play. Don't like card counters? Invest in a continuous shuffling machine.

orless9y ago

"The presence of hidden rules..." except they are not hidden. IANAL and don't have link at hand, but there was recently a legally pretty well based argument in a case of a player who had an assitant able of recognizing cards from the back pattern.

"you're only pushing the buttons" except they were not only pushing a button, they were also recording sequences and sending them abroad for analysis.

But as you directly say that exploiting the flaws of a slot machine is not cheating and that it's fair, I guess I won't be able to persuade you otherwise.

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orless9y ago

loup-vaillantOP9y ago

OK, so our disagreement is very simple: exploiting the flaws of a slot machine is not cheating in my book. Neither is counting cards now that I think of it.

orless9y ago

"you're only pushing the buttons" except they were not only pushing a button, they were also recording sequences and sending them abroad for analysis.

But as you directly say that exploiting the flaws of a slot machine is not cheating and that it's fair, I guess I won't be able to persuade you otherwise.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse