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0 pointsjimmywanger9y ago0 comments

You're missing the main point of the argument. It's not a loophole.

There are a certain number of criteria for employees vs contractors, based on whether training/equipment is provided, price setting, ability to turn down jobs, etc etc.

If you're classified as an employee, there are a bunch of things you have to do, such as collect GST, deal with health care, sick days, paternity leave, taxes, etc.

Uber is making the case that its drivers are contractors, since they set their own hours and purchase and maintain all their own equipment. It's a plausible argument, and that's something for the courts to sort out.

Just saying that they need to collect GST because the drivers are employees is begging the question.

If Uber drivers are classified as employees, what's next? Upwork and eLance workers classified as employees?

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rdiddly9y ago

They need to collect GST because a Good or Service is being provided and that's what the Tax covers.

jimmywangerOP9y ago

You're missing the point, and begging the question.

If the good or service is being provided by a non-taxi contractor who makes less than 30k a year, then you don't have to collect the GST and the tax doesn't cover that.

If the good or service is being provided by Uber, a non-contractor who makes over 30k a year, then you have to pay the tax.

What we're debating here is who provides the service and their legal status.

rdiddly9y ago

I'm deliberately ignoring your point actually, because it's moot. The law is being changed to eliminate your first case (independent small suppliers) and declare those services to have been provided by a single entity (Uber). Both sides of your debate are now one.

There's a certain amount of circular reasoning inherent here, because a government ministry made a declaration. It's not just an objective observation of reality, it's a declaration of what that reality will be henceforth.

Was it a good decision? In my opinion yes, because it better reflects the original intent of this particular tax. Anyone trading on the brand-name of "Uber" and using Uber's infrastructure is not a small supplier (who has to build and market their own brand and build their own infrastructure). And they are clearly supplying a good or service, which was my point expressed in embryonic form above, so they can go ahead and collect the tax.

jimmywangerOP9y ago

If you look at the context of the thread, the parent basically said that the old laws should have applied to Uber and that they should have been collecting taxes all along but wasn't by exploiting legal loopholes.

My point is that Uber did not have to pay taxes, and their obligation to collect taxes was unclear. Under the new law they have the collect taxes. Under the old law, it was plausible that they didn't.

The main takeaway is that most aspects of the legal system, including definitions for commonly accepted terms, are not actually clear.

Especially your argument on intents of taxes. I don't believe that brand-name and infrastructure alone make an employee out of an independent contractor. Also, based on your brandname and infrastructure arguement, should people who sell handicrafts on Etsy or Amazon be classified as employees of Amazon and be forced to pay GST on all sales?

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jdmichal9y ago

OK, lets take as granted that the service is actually being provided by the drivers and not Uber, who is just acting as a facilitator of the payment. I would still argue that they should have owed taxes all along, because even in that case they are providing a service. It's just that the service they are actually providing is to the drivers -- matchmaking and payment collection. So the cut they take from the drivers should have been taxed all along.

jimmywangerOP9y ago

The verbiage says the GST applies to goods and services bought in Canada. Also there's some sort of credit you can deduct, which bears further looking into, based on the goods and services you consume and pay GST on.

Basically, the taxation law is unclear, because you could easily argue that the service is purchased in the United States, where the Uber servers and the internet connections are. In that case, we're talking about Uber not really being a Canadian company, just that it has subcontractors working in Canada, making it exempt from taxes.

It seems like a lot of people have already decided whether or not Uber should be paying taxes, and now are retroactively applying logic to justify their original decision.

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rdiddly9y ago

They need to collect GST because a Good or Service is being provided and that's what the Tax covers.

jimmywangerOP9y ago

You're missing the point, and begging the question.

If the good or service is being provided by a non-taxi contractor who makes less than 30k a year, then you don't have to collect the GST and the tax doesn't cover that.

If the good or service is being provided by Uber, a non-contractor who makes over 30k a year, then you have to pay the tax.

What we're debating here is who provides the service and their legal status.

rdiddly9y ago

jimmywangerOP9y ago

The main takeaway is that most aspects of the legal system, including definitions for commonly accepted terms, are not actually clear.

1 more reply

jdmichal9y ago

jimmywangerOP9y ago

It seems like a lot of people have already decided whether or not Uber should be paying taxes, and now are retroactively applying logic to justify their original decision.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse