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0 pointsmike_hearn9y ago0 comments

Thanks for the reasoned debate. I'm not a big fan of downvoting in political discussions.

I am basing my list on attitudes expressed by people in:

1) The Guardian

2) The Labour party

3) Friends who I know strongly identify as left wing

I think you'll agree Labour, the Guardian and people who explicitly identify as left wing are all describable as left wing.

Most people won't explicitly state outright that they distrust democracy. But all I have to do is examine the number of MPs that voted against the Article 50 bill (to begin implementation of the referendum) in each party to see a clear difference between the right and left wing parties. It was after all the Tories that gave the UK a referendum on the EU, and Labour that said they would and then went back on their promise.

All I have to do is compare randomly chosen articles in the Guardian and (say) the Telegraph to see the clear difference in attitudes.

And when I look at what my friends are sharing on Facebook, there's a clear correlation between those who were most appalled by Brexit and the ones who are constantly sharing anti-Tory screeds.

So, I do feel that my experiences are pretty consistent in this regard, and I know from articles and comments I read elsewhere that I'm not alone in this.

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js89y ago· 1 in thread

I read Guardian from time to time and while there is some (renewed) distrust to democracy, not sure it really comes from leftists (I cannot track all journalist's political views). AFAICT the ones that I recognize as leftist (e.g. Monbiot) haven't changed their mind at all.

In my experience, distrust in democracy is pretty similar on left/right spectrum, mostly correlated with elitism. Many (although a minority) of university graduates are (ostensibly) leftist yet elitist.

It also has been shown that people who are in power (for example ruling party, members of parliament, etc.) are more likely to oppose (direct) democracy. That's probably the strongest predictor.

I don't believe that people who brought the Brexit referendum had democracy in their hearts, unfortunately. I have seen examples of politicians proposing a specific referendum because they thought the idea has majority support, and refusing referendum in other instances (for example, I doubt conservatives want referendum for Scottish secession in case of Brexit).

But regardless, I suggest you educate your friends. Democracy is the leftist idea (because it treats everybody as having equal power), this goes back to origin of the word left/right in the French parliament.

mike_hearnOP9y ago

It also has been shown that people who are in power (for example ruling party, members of parliament, etc.) are more likely to oppose (direct) democracy. That's probably the strongest predictor.

I'm not sure that correlates with what's happening in the UK. The Conservatives are in power and held the referendum and are now the party that is united behind implementing it, despite that it campaigned to remain. Labour is not in power and they're the ones trying to slow it down (SNP of course, also not in power, and united in trying to damn the rest of the UK as normal).

I have seen examples of politicians proposing a specific referendum because they thought the idea has majority support, and refusing referendum in other instances (for example, I doubt conservatives want referendum for Scottish secession in case of Brexit).

It was Cameron who made the Scottish indyref happen, wasn't it? Despite that the Conservatives are unionists. Again, I'm not sure your argument matches how events played out. They probably wouldn't want one right now because it was only a few years since the last one and polls don't indicate any major change, besides, the civil service wouldn't be able to implement both Brexit and Scexit simultaneously.

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