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0 pointsrdtsc9y ago0 comments

I am quoting Sanders here not some fringe anarchist nobody has heard of. Chomsky also wrote about it.

> Believing in freedom of movement,

I believe in equality of freedom. So far I haven't seen a lot of poor and disenfranchised being able to move freely. Are you saying Facebook here represents or is a proxy for them and so when it talks about globalization it means anything other than getting more clicks and users who log into it.

> but I think you're swallowing a lot of right-wing lies about what "the left" believes.

I don't listen to much to right wing lies but I don't listen to left wing ones as well. I am happy to not be in either camp. I've always been an outsider. Quite used to it. But here I am trying to even see what left even means anymore. I just made a point that in what "left" means has changed, and I think it is an interesting change.

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kmonsen9y ago· 4 in thread

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues.

If you described something exactly like Obamacare, but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

rdtscOP9y ago

Alright good point. Heck Sanders and Chomsky might be centrists in Europe as well probably.

> The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else,

I think at least in the PR domain they don't shy away from calling themselves "the left". Which I think it is interesting. And the left (if there is one, and that's separate point to talk) hasn't exactly disavowed or pushed against it too much.

> but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

The fascinating thing is Trump has picked up "the concern for the workers", NAFTA and TPP as central talking points and ran with it. That was Democrat's bread-and-butter in the past. I am not sure if it was is sincere or pure opportunism (he did pull out of TPP, so that's something...). But I can't deny that it was a good strategy for him.

Even more interesting to me is to see that as soon as he did those things, the new "left" almost immediately reverted to talk about "how TPP is great" and "NAFTA is a good thing" and workers are just idiots brainwashed by fake news and such.

I was watching Reddit's /r/politics and after TPP pull-out and there were posts explicitly saying "we have to support TPP because Trump is against". There is something fascinating there, I think. Remembering the DNC primaries with TPP signs everywhere. And then few months later "what do you mean, we love the TPP".

kmonsen9y ago

Trump is running on "the concern for the voters", but in my humble opinion none of his solutions are going to be good for workers.

There will be less healthcare, less worker protections and less taxes paid by rich people.

The TPP is interesting in that as I understand it was meant to be a big political bargain to fence in China with a lot of concessions give to large cooperations.

Another thing is that free trade in general is good for poor workers somewhere, but unless it comes with some agreement on worker protections they will all be eroded in the long run.

Both left wing and right wing people can find something to like there, it depends on how it is implemented. Kind of like UBI which the far right and the far left in theory agree to, they just use the same name for widely different things.

grzm9y ago

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else?

I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately need in American political discourse.

kmonsen9y ago

I agree, I am basing it on things I vaguely remember having read and a tiny bit out of my ass. Chomsky uses this a consistent talking point, sorry again no reference, that the polls are consistently to the left of the Democrats.

I wish I could give you a better answer, and will concede my documentation is lacking. I do believe this is true based on my conversations with Democrat and GOP voters when living here. Most people are fairly leftist when it comes to specifics, well except paying taxes.

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5 comments · 1 top-level

kmonsen9y ago· 4 in thread

Chomsky and Sanders are very different from the democratic party. The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

Elections have become an us vs them thing focusing on a few issues that will divide us, but mostly the population are significantly to the left of both parties in the US on actual issues.

If you described something exactly like Obamacare, but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

rdtscOP9y ago

Alright good point. Heck Sanders and Chomsky might be centrists in Europe as well probably.

> The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else,

> but called it Trumpcare it would be super popular with GOP voters and maybe hated by democrat voters.

kmonsen9y ago

Trump is running on "the concern for the voters", but in my humble opinion none of his solutions are going to be good for workers.

There will be less healthcare, less worker protections and less taxes paid by rich people.

The TPP is interesting in that as I understand it was meant to be a big political bargain to fence in China with a lot of concessions give to large cooperations.

Another thing is that free trade in general is good for poor workers somewhere, but unless it comes with some agreement on worker protections they will all be eroded in the long run.

grzm9y ago

The democratic party is to the left of the GOP but to the right of anything else, including the American people.

I'm assuming you mean big-D Democratic Party. When you say American people, what do you mean? A majority? How much of one? What are you basing this on? Polls? If so, which ones? Something else?

I'm pushing a little because the statement seems to lack nuance, which is something I think we so desperately need in American political discourse.

kmonsen9y ago

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