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0 pointssweetjesus9y ago0 comments

> is insulting much as if Premier Xi in China started having friendly chats with the governor of Hawai'i or Alaska while publicly pouring scorn on DC

speaking somewhat loosely, actually there is no "much as if" in this sense. The Chinese have a "face saving is the most important thing" culture, and the US does not. Think of it more like the tribal regions of the -stans: China is metaphorically ready to do some honor killing over this in a way we can't grok. Doesn't mean we should acquiesce of course. I'd perhaps make the analogy that everybody in the Chinese government is as thin skinned as Trump. (I'm exaggerating to make analogies here, no need to jump all over me, of course it's more nuanced.) Meanwhile, our neighboring Mexican politicians publically pour scorn on the US all the time and it doesn't particularly affect our relations (not sure if Trump can take it tho)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

In any case, it would not actually bother the US all that much if China talked to Hawaii, nor does it bother US that China talks to the Philippines; it would be to our benefit if China and the Philippines resolved their differences mutually, and the same with Taiwan; it does bother US that the Philippines would make short-sighted unwise bargains inasmuch as we get the sense that we will be involved in cleaning up the mess later, and inasmuch as it reinforces China's belief that they should throw their weight around more WRT the Biển Đông (the East Sea, off the coast of Vietnam;)

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gumby9y ago· 3 in thread

> The Chinese have a "face saving is the most important thing" culture, and the US does not. Think of it more like the tribal regions of the -stans: China is metaphorically ready to do some honor killing over this in a way we can't grok.

Please, can we ditch the outdated stereotypes? The Chinese govt uses the parallel tropes to the US ("we've suffered under years of foreign domination" "Here we're on an anti-corruption campaign so you don't have to suffer under unnecessary taxes" etc. And funding local SoEs to keep the jobs flowing).

Is make America Great Again any different? "Other countries are laughing at us." "We never win any more""We're going to bring back coal"

I just picked MAGA because it was a recent successful platform. But consider dispassionately: 15 years ago a small bunch of bandits killed 3000 people and cause a few billion in property damage. IN return the US has spent trillions killing people who had nothing to do with it in order to to restore its honor. Movies from Rambo to Shooter to anything by Chuck Norris are simply ways to pander to loss of face.

Of course there are differences between the two but let's stick to facts.

lacampbell9y ago

It's not an outdated stereotype. There are fundamental differences between eastern and western cultures. Individualistic vs collectivist, guilt based vs shame based.

The very fact that English has the expression "Lose Face" is because it was translated from Chinese and imported into the language in the 19th century[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)#En...

fjdlwlv9y ago

You should look up what the movie Rambo is actually about. It's an interesting and important story.

gumby9y ago

That's really my point in those examples: Rambo and Shooter have an explicit story that ties to a particular individualistic-in-group-context narrative, but they also rest upon an underlying group identification and sense of group shame. Shooter is interesting in that I don't feel race plays any role in the group, except through the use of an "outside mercenary"

anigbrowl9y ago

My in-laws are Vietnamese-Chinese so I'm painfully aware of how upsetting a perceived loss of face can be.

I would say, though, that there's a big difference between Hawai'i and the Phillipines. The latter is a treaty partner of the US but that's still something less than being territory. (Of course many Hawai'ian people would rather go back to being a sovereign nation but I don't want to veer far off topic.)

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