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0 pointscsydas9y ago0 comments

> This is a very high social cost in the west, and you can't pose with a tor t-shirt (like the dude in the photo) if that the narrative. You will be expelled from your students union instead of celebrated for supporting it. So, a typical westener tor-supporter does not want this image.

I suggest this is overstated, at least as far as Tor is concerned. While there are occasionally news reports about various crimes that utilized Tor as part of the process, more often the generic term "encryption" or "anonymizing software" is used in news reports. I think the general reaction to anyone wearing a Tor T-shirt would be indifference, save maybe one or two curious talkative parties.

I will admit this is anecdotal, but overwhelmingly when Tor has been brought up in the past in my workplace or during discussions, overwhelmingly the response has either been "what's Tor" or "oh Tor. I've heard of that. What is that exactly?". The idea of "expelled from student union" for being a Tor Supporter is completely outside of my understanding of what people in the US even know about Tor. Even so much as having a casual two-way conversation with a non-tech person about Tor seems like a foreign concept. Tor might catch headlines once in awhile, but when it comes to things like online privacy and anonymity, I don't think this is what the lay person thinks of.

I mean, just page through news.google a bit searching for "Tor". The news outlets covering it are pretty much tech-oriented; going just a few pages deep, only politico really mentioned Tor, and that was literally only to say it was used by the hackers during the Clinton email breach, calling it an anonymity tool.

I just don't think there's enough evidence to really say that the general public or even law enforcement really knows what Tor is, much less form an aggressive opinion towards supporters.

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1ris9y ago· 1 in thread

"expelled from student union" was a hyperbole. But not much. Being associated with anything child porn, no matter how strange the association might look, is a social death-sentence. And IMHO winds have to change only slightly for that to happen to tor. One Buzzfeed or vice article would probably be enough. As said, I already had very awkward conversation about tor when it was somewhat new.

I remember when internet censorship was about to be introduced in germany. Blocking child porn was the stated intend. It was a good dammed awfull climate. The debate was a mine field. Lot's of people where vehemently opposed, but did voice their oppinion but in their in-groups where they knew people would agree with them.

The major reason we don't have these filter is few brave activists who stated that they, victims of child sexual abuse, think sweeping these crimes under the carpet instead of investigating them is unacceptable. A very, very clever spin. If it weren't for these people the social cost for arguing against censorship infrastructure would simply have been to god dammed high for the most of us.

If I couldn't have pointed to these people and tell that censorship actually makes it all worse I would have feared for my social standing and my physical well-being.

I understand very well Tor folks don't want that. But as said, the western user or developer is probably not the person to care about most.

csydasOP9y ago

A late response just in case you check your threads.

I am not discounting your experience, it's more I do feel it's an exception. I do understand that you were using some exaggeration for effect, but my point was more that it's hard to get into an awkward conversation with the General PUblic (in the US at least) about Tor because the general pubic doesn't have the basis to even discuss it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point a bit (and I'll gladly admit it if I am), but by and large in the US at least, the conversation about Tor by the general public is non-existent. It arises when interested parties need it (for good or bad), but much like "hacking" or "encryption", it's a very poorly understood and disassociated term amongst the general public. Most journaists can't describe what it does, much less how it works. They know that badguys use it for something, sometimes, but even then they can't really narrow down what Tor's function was.

The discussion on any privacy tool is muddied by child porn - there's no doubt about it. And while the threatening question of "what do you have to hide?" when it comes to encryption isn't anywhere near as damning as the association with child porn, I imagine it's a brief and short taste of something much much worse.

However, I think realistically most of the Western Population is oblivious to what Tor actually is, just like they don't really understand Apple's device encryption, they don't understand why Heartbleed was bad (it just was), and so on. Some persons may have a strong opinion, and these strong opinions can certainly be dangerous. But I don't think the majority of the population would be swayed.

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