As a result, the guy really lives in a bubble where everything he says almost immediately happens, but only in Turkey. This does not stop him to order doing something about that stupid foreign press, and all his advisors think is to ask the German govt to suppress free press in Germany.
Expect more from him in the coming months since he's on a ride to the top of idiocy.
And see, criticism of Erdogan is not really forbidden. Criticism in its every form is forbidden, if you're powerful enough. Criticise Ataturk, and what happens? Lawsuits, and you'll probably be jailed (1). Say that the Armenian Genocide happened, you'll be jailed. Criticise the party leaders, and they sack half of the party, e.g. the recent MHP situation.
Erdogan does not like criticism, but it's our culture that allows him to actually enforce a surpression thereof. There was a guy who reported his own wife because she spoke pejoratively about Erdogan. Here there still is a godly ruling class, the class of devlet buyukleri. Until they become merely the citizens with the duty to decide for us for a limited time and with full responsabilities, the status quo will go on.
(1) A very recent example is the havoc against a documentary that criticised him.
It's even "better" than that, because it is so easy for a leader to re-spin outside criticism from "attack against me" to "attack against us", strengthening his position internally. And this pattern is not even limited to dictators and the like: when Americans made fun of Bush junior, it was perfectly fine application of of free speech. If Europeans did the same, it was antiamericanism making Americans rally around the flag to protect him.
So in the interplay between international and domestic opinion, there seems to be some kind of inverse Streisand effect. Can we please have a word for that? It would make the whole world easier to understand... (german has "Burgfriedensmentalität“, but that is the resulting state, not the mechanism that causes it)
It hurts your country's ability to leverage foreign minds when you begin to censor the outside world. Plus, with the internet, censorship becomes really impractical. China and North Korea don't do this completely successfully and they spend a lot of effort to keep their citizens on some form of lock down. So not only do you end up missing out on the collective conscience of foreigners, but you also lose some portion of your own population's trust and creativity.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world is working together to solve problems in an open, concerted manner. I'm not saying our world is perfect but I think it's fairly obvious that censorship, in the days of the internet, is not the right way to the future.
We need to get over ourselves, stop being so sensitive, and recognize that even when governments make laws to protect people's feelings, people will still say mean and negative things. I don't want to read those garbage comments here on HN because it fills up the thread, but I can tolerate them in the real world because I know I can just walk away. The only time speech should be regulated is when it incites violence, and I'm sorry to all the extremist Muslims, but drawing a picture is not viewed as inciting violence by most of the world, including most of the people who follow similar forms of that faith.
But however much I might disagree with Erdogan, I know that he probably isn't actually be an idiot: people who can grab and hold that much power rarely are. Your explanation of how he's manufacturing this kerfuffle for a domestic audience makes a lot more sense.
What are divorce laws like in Turkey? I'm betting this guy just wanted to get rid of his wife, and found this to be a convenient way to do so.
So it really is forbidden, just not enforced until you actually start making an impact?
I wonder, will Erdogan bring back Janissaries? Or has he already through his full control of the security forces?
And Europe is helpless as it braces for the massive waves of immigrants coming its way, with Turkey winning big political concessions in exchange for "stopping" them. I can only imagine how Erdogan handles that.
But it's not just Turkey.
I'm afraid this can be said about more and more leaders in lots of countries around the world. Most of the former USSR has developed such political systems/leaders, with Putin leading the pack.
Corruption is growing all over the world and these types of leaders are consequences of that.
In the end it's up to the people of all this countries to use the still remaining democratic levers to bring new people into power.
Don't worry, we'll join those other countries later this year when we elect our own queen of corruption, Hillary.
- Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that for himself.
- Police force had always been controlled by internal affairs ministry. There is nothing new there.
- That "barely standing democracy" was actually also a semi dictatorian state as well, only controlled by military and minority bureaucrat elite.
- In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, I have faith in Turkish people, they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well.
I think Erdogan lost his cool after the affair with Gulen cult, has too many yes mans around and apparently does not care about streisand effect. I don't see him in power for long time.
Also he will be in power for a long long time - he has a big core of pious Turks that support him. The recent elections were always about him getting a supermajority.
In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down,
I have faith in Turkish people,
they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well.
- In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, I have faith in Turkish people, they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well.
Not to mention that his voters are the religious people and mostly not the most educated type. They get easily manipulated by the media. We are at brink of civil war and our international relationship is suffering but he still gets the votes because "he is so charismatic and religious"
I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?
Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opinion on life-or-death (for Greece) matters three times in a day. Not because they lack conviction or idealism, but because they have a set of believes that are sometimes conflicting. Plus lack of sleep, incomplete information etc.
I wish more of that process could be shown on TV, but politicians who actually voice these ambiguities are unfortunately seen as weak and thus at some point a decision is made internally and is then communicated with absolute confidence publicly.
Regarding Turkey: rest assured, they're never going to be an EU member if things don't change dramatically. Medium-term, Turkey does actually belong in the EU: it's got enormous economic potential, could be a bridge to the middle east etc. Maybe that should have actually happened in the 1995-2008 timeframe and we'd have a different Turkey today. But EU leaders closed the door back then, possibly b/c Turkey was too poor, probably also because there's always one EU head of state who's a fucking racist.
And I don't follow the arguments for Turkey joining. Yes, it may have enormous potential; but nobody would say Mexico should join the US just because it has potential.
Even when politicians do the right things (get a panel of experts to write a detailed report, and then try to act on the findings) - headlines contain only the barest hint of the depth of the analysis and the findings are chastised by various ill informed commentators who don't even bother to read the damned reasoning.
I actually feel sorry for those trying to govern.
It looks like you are so unsure about your own arguments that you need insulting them to feel better.
The main reason EU closed the door to Turkey had nothing to do with race(their race is the same of Europeans'), and everything to do with culture and religion, specially religion.
You could disagree with them and their arguments, but insulting them is not ok.
Turkey is a Muslim country. People like Erdogan don't like Western values, he is very clear about that, they prefer a Muslim theocracy in which every part of life is controlled by this (non sense) book written 1500 years ago.
To think seriously about the consequences of letting a hundred million Muslims entering Europe is not racist, it is the politicians' job.
The issue, however, is religion. EU has enough problems as is with religion (less than the US, and less than it used to have, but still), but still people are wary.
Although IIRC Turkey used to be less religious than it is now, under Erdogan.
German here, I completely agree. I don't necessarily think Turkey would be a good fit for the EU, quite the opposite. But I do believe in the near future Europe will have to solve problems on a large scale that Turkey poses to a way lesser extent. If we cannot handle the Turkey situation, I don't see what future the European way of life (whatever that is supposed to be) has 100 years from now, in an ever changing world.
This situation disturbs me two folds: 1) For the reasons you mentioned already, 2) The power gained through this dirty game being used to suppress the already heavily weakened opposition further in my once democratic country (However, I feel more attached to Germany, to be honest).
As a fellow German, it's encouraging to hear that immigrants sometimes still feel they can identify with Germany as their new country, despite all the obvious hurdles.
My ex girlfriend's parents moved back to Turkey recently after spending pretty much their entire working lives in Germany, which got me thinking a lot. They said their primary reasons were that they could do more with their retirement money in Turkey and that the weather is nicer - but at the end of the day it means a liberal, secular couple felt like they would be better off moving into a country with a failing democracy, increasing religious fundamentalism, with a wannabe Putin in charge, as opposed to staying where they spent most of their lives.
The ironic thing is that a few years ago, when the generals still kept the government in check to ensure the secular nature of the Turkish state, the streak in the European left was "Turkey is not democratic because the military has too much power", and the 2002 reforms were heralded as a major improvement. Something about a frying pan and a fire comes to mind...
Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"?
Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? Language is powerful.
Do you feel welcome in germany? Just curious.
The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go look around statues and stuff in Vienna to see what I mean. I have Turkish friends in Germany who, given the treatment, experience being called a Turk as a racial slur. In some sense it's good that so many real arabs are in Germany right now, which should show the broader population the difference between Anatolians and Middle-Easterners. The Turkish population is of quite a mixed ethnic background, even today. This is normal for a place that's not tiny and partly due to cross-pollination too.
The way the EU has evolved is highly questionable and the memberships of many are even more dubious to say the least, so there are much deeper problems than whether another place like the UK, just with almost no Christianity, should get laxer trade agreements or not. Think about why some very central European Christian countries don't use the EURO or in the case of Iceland aren't even fully in the EU but could have been.
Turkey was the hearth of the Ottoman empire with whom most of Europe had been at intermittent war for centuries until it was dissolved already after WWI (in fact, because of the outcome of WWI).
They were certainly not a friend and the main historical current is that the rulers of Europe accepted the dangers of the existence of the very powerful Austo-Hungarian empire exactly so that they would act as a military barrier between the Ottoman empire and Europe, otherwise the other European kingdoms would never accept the Austro-Hungarians to have such power inside Europe.
Turkey was a Muslim Empire, or as you say, club. They took Christians and enslaved them or made them fought their wars with exclusive privileges only to Muslims.
Let's not forget history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
Christians were expelled from Turkey or simply exterminated not that long ago. There is people alive that remembers it. From 1 person in five being Christian to 2 in a hundred.
UK has almost no Christianity? Ohhh, dear, everything in UK is Christian. I have lived in UK and in a non Christian country(China, Japan or Korea)to know.
But for Germans - i think that the internalized guilt that was whipped into the German society after WWII just prevents them from thinking - EU and his people/interests first, Germany first or criticizing foreigners.
We all will pay dearly for supporting "religious freedom" Erdogan against his army in the early 00s
As much as we all hate the growth of Islam, we can't really do much about it. If we suppress the Islamic populists for too long, we risk creating more caliphates around the world.
Erdogan is an idiot. He overplayed his cards and does not realize it. I hope Turkey stays out of the EU forever.
https://www.google.com/search?q=IM+Raupe#q=IM+Raupe+gauck
https://www.google.com/search?q=IM+Raupe#q=IM+erika+merkel
There is one famous picture, showing Merkel at a very young age in the outskirts of Berlin in front of a house of a dissident that was under observation. WTF was she doing there? And why did she forbid any further publication of this picture, after is was shown by a Magazine from Switzerland?
I saw this picture myself and it is not available anymore in the internet.
I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the term used due to the immense power he and his Russia wield internationally when compared to small fry Turkey
Which of course doesn't make the situation any better.
I find it worrying. Turkey seemed to be such a success until a few years ago. A booming, increasingly western economy, seeming stability. Somehow you expect dictatorship to come with a revolution, but it seems it can slowly creep up on you. All it seems to take is a strong, popular leader.
People think they like strong, popular leaders, but I find them a threat to democracy. They tend to think they're doing everyone, the country, a favor by latching on to power and never letting go again.
And they want to join the EU...!
Mr. Erdogan brandishing a fire extinguisher at a laptop, while threatening, “Either you erase this video, or I will extinguish the Internet.”
In German 'löschen' does mean to extinguish a fire (as the cartoon implies with the fire extinguisher), but more generally this is what you'd use for 'delete' in most/all cases.
So while the translation is certainly correct, the double meaning of 'I will delete the internet' is lost.
I agree that it works better in German but it translates surprisingly well into English.
Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way before many others). Now we see a country which has drifted towards the most rancid nationalism and authoritarianism.
It's a pity really. Turkey enjoys so many geographical and cultural advantages (being the door between Europe and Asia), that had it steered towards the modern democracy path by keeping Atatürk's legacy alive, it would have easily become a notable member of the EU and a major player in the stability of the region.
http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Ir...
Oh and the song with english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ
English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc
Spread...
I can't believe that he really expected Germany and/or German people to back down about such a topic.
Yes, that in fact, minus the strong opposition. His power is not that big, but the conjecture allows him to keep on: The three strong opposition parties cannot form an alliance against his. See my other comments.
Not exactly. Germans have to pay the Rundfunkabgabe which directly funds the TV stations, it's not a position in the government's bookkeeping.
Either they are for him or against him. If they are against him, he is going after them - regardless of who employs them.
Well those tv stations are controlled by boards on which members of the ruling political parties are, so the influence thing is kind if ridiculous, but that's the official version, yes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailin...
Western democracies are unable to protect democracy or even stand for democratic rights. Instead they are more fearful about some refugees.
Who does not learn from history, is doomed to repeat it.
Rather reminiscent of "Finlandization" during the Cold War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-censorship...
> Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years.
How did you end up with this conclusion? http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-mos...
> I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.
Do you really believe that your generation is properly educated?
I don't hold as much hope for people on who, counter to their stated aims, Streisand people into prominence by no-platforming them.
Screaming “Terrorist Erdogan” and displaying homemade signs, a group of protesters are approached by members of the Turkish president’s security detail, who then proceed to comically yell and drown out the negative chants.
Böhmermann killed that freedom today with his song though ;)
PS: for a quick solution, use incognito mode.
Thank you for your inspiring comment.
Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the western civilization?