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0 pointsshadowfiend9y ago0 comments

Downvoter here: I downvoted early on because you're making an argument that seems to me both not particularly good and off-topic to the post you replied to.

OP posited: “Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the right direction.”

You basically responded, “They're still not as good as I want them to be!” It's a point that has nothing to do with the original comment, which was about improvement, not perfection, and about how seriously they take Safari/Webkit development, not about their release process (which remains roughly the same as it has been for the past many years).

Additionally, regarding the workarounds you mention: they are unnecessary in a “normal environment with rapid updates” only when those developers decide to fix your bug. Again: rapid updates are only useful if your bug is being addressed. I've got workarounds in my code for issues in Firefox that probably won't be fixed anytime soon, and features that Firefox and Chrome support poorly that they won't support well for a while, etc, etc.

I'm not saying Apple couldn't be releasing bug fixes for Safari on any platform faster—they certainly could. But you made an unrelated complaint as a reply to a specific comment, and your argument seems suspect to boot.

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wyqydsyq9y ago

The problem isn't necessarily Apple's laziness with updating Safari, I think it's more the fact that they insist on using their own JavaScript engine. They could very easily just use Blink and V8 which would significantly cut down the maintenance work in keeping Safari up to date as well as leveraging the work already done rather than trying to reinvent the wheel to nobody's benefit.

For example most ES2015 features have been available in Chrome, Edge and Firefox for over 6 months now, but Safari still doesn't support any of it (other than this tech preview) because it's development time is shared with the rest of Apple's ecosystem.

Unless Apple dedicates more resources to Safari in order to keep pace with the rest of the browsers, they'll be playing catch-up ad infinitum.

alwillis9y ago

WebKit supports 98% of ES2015, more than any other major browser engine, so keeping pace isn’t a problem for Apple: https://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/

Now with Safari Technical Preview, if you want access to all of it in a more accessible package than the WebKit Nightlies, you can have it.

BTW, Apple has been doing what appears to be a amazingly good work on JavaScript Core lately, extending their performance lead: https://webkit.org/blog/5852/introducing-the-b3-jit-compiler....

justabystander9y ago

You realize that although WebKit supports 98%, Safari itself as of version 9 supports 53%. As is noted in your own link to the compatibility table. So, yes, keeping pace is a problem for Apple, since the other browsers are significantly ahead and the Safari 9 series was released half a year ago. Even Microsoft Edge has been doing better.

You might actually have a leg to stand on when Safari 9.1, released 10 days ago, gets its ES6 state tested and uploaded to the compatibility table. Or it might be more embarrassment about Apple's slow release cycle. It's also unclear as to whether Safari Tech Preview will contain the majority of ES6 code in Webkit or if it will be "curated" into a significantly less compliant and useful state. Once again, tests will tell. What is certain for now is that six months of Safari have left it at 53%, which, among many other examples, has been Safari dragging everyone else down.

Just because they have untested, unsupported code in a development branch doesn't mean that their main browser with a completely different name and a glacial release cycle gets a pass for holding up the class. The Tech Preview is a good starting step, but until these things have a clear release cycle that shows current WebKit ES6 feature support making its way into a release build before the end of the year, we'll continue to be upset at them with cause.

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coldtea9y ago

Only Safari (betas) have better ES6 support than Chrome ones according to a latest article on Ars.

And Safari saves like 20% to 30% of your battery life over Chrome...

http://bgr.com/2015/08/05/google-chrome-vs-safari-battery-li...

http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/10/8381447/chrome-macbook-bat...

And both are due to Apple's own JIT engine...

gsnedders9y ago

> And Safari saves like 20% to 30% of your battery life over Chrome... > And both are due to Apple's own JIT engine...

I feel like that claim needs a source. I'd be amazed if the JS engine had anywhere near such a substantial effect on battery life.

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lstamour9y ago

Except the reason Blink forked from WebKit was all the Apple-specific code they could drop. Apple really focuses on hardware integration and getting maximum battery life out of their engine. I can't say the same about Chrome yet.

chris_wot9y ago

I don't care how much I've been downvoted, especially by someone who contributes their own comments so infrequently to HN, but it's funny how you only now decided to make a comment.

I personally feel that Apple are still not as good as not only I want them to be, but pretty much anyone who uses or develops for iOS. But yes, you categorize my comments and opinions well - Apple are indeed not very responsive, and yes Apple need to do a hell of a lot better. As I say, the votes are bouncing up and down, so I'm not the only one who has holds this opinion.

And no, it's not off-topic. As an end user, I now have to incorporate workarounds that no normal user should have to make to get around their issues - I'm literally running Charles proxy (until iOS 9.3 fixed their issue) and a rewrite rule to get around their ridiculous bug. And I had to run it for 3 months. Firefox and Chrome has an issue like this one fixed within their next cycle - in other words, in no time at all.

All of which means I'm not afraid, ashamed or worried about downvotes from folks like yourself. I've not said anything offensive, sexist, racist or even all that terribly controversial. You've finally come out of the woodwork to make your comment, which I appreciate. If only you had made it sooner, eh?

dang9y ago

Please don't go on about getting downvoted in HN comments. The guidelines explicitly ask everyone not to do that, because it's tedious.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

chris_wot9y ago

OK, and what about those who tell me that I'm off topic when I'm not? Or those who don't look at my wider point and accuse me of bad faith comments?

My only comment was that my score was going up and down like a yo-yo, and only because I was being accused of making off-topic comments. That's pretty tedious, no? Surely that's against HN guidelines?

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0 pointsshadowfiend9y ago0 comments

Downvoter here: I downvoted early on because you're making an argument that seems to me both not particularly good and off-topic to the post you replied to.

OP posited: “Apple's been taking a number of steps over the last few months to show that they take Safari/WebKit development seriously. This is another positive step in the right direction.”

0 comments

wyqydsyq9y ago

Unless Apple dedicates more resources to Safari in order to keep pace with the rest of the browsers, they'll be playing catch-up ad infinitum.

alwillis9y ago

WebKit supports 98% of ES2015, more than any other major browser engine, so keeping pace isn’t a problem for Apple: https://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/

Now with Safari Technical Preview, if you want access to all of it in a more accessible package than the WebKit Nightlies, you can have it.

BTW, Apple has been doing what appears to be a amazingly good work on JavaScript Core lately, extending their performance lead: https://webkit.org/blog/5852/introducing-the-b3-jit-compiler....

justabystander9y ago

1 more reply

coldtea9y ago

Only Safari (betas) have better ES6 support than Chrome ones according to a latest article on Ars.

And Safari saves like 20% to 30% of your battery life over Chrome...

http://bgr.com/2015/08/05/google-chrome-vs-safari-battery-li...

http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/10/8381447/chrome-macbook-bat...

And both are due to Apple's own JIT engine...

gsnedders9y ago

> And Safari saves like 20% to 30% of your battery life over Chrome... > And both are due to Apple's own JIT engine...

I feel like that claim needs a source. I'd be amazed if the JS engine had anywhere near such a substantial effect on battery life.

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lstamour9y ago

chris_wot9y ago

I don't care how much I've been downvoted, especially by someone who contributes their own comments so infrequently to HN, but it's funny how you only now decided to make a comment.

dang9y ago

Please don't go on about getting downvoted in HN comments. The guidelines explicitly ask everyone not to do that, because it's tedious.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

chris_wot9y ago

OK, and what about those who tell me that I'm off topic when I'm not? Or those who don't look at my wider point and accuse me of bad faith comments?

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse