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0 pointsatemerev10y ago0 comments

Docker is just a toolkit for composing and networking layered OS images. It improves isolation of things and adheres to simple principles (immutable containers, restarting instead attempting to recover, etc.) It structures things better. Inter-container communication is deliberately simple (env variables and, recently, networking).

Systemd spits on isolation, it embraces integration of everything. Supervision, logging, communication, IO, configuration, state management — everything goes through systemd. Everything is binary and opaque. Docker is transparent.

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bryanlarsen10y ago

Your criticism of systemd still applies to docker. "Supervision, logging, communication, IO, configuration, state management — everything goes through docker"

If I use systemd I have to type 'systemd logs' to get at my logs, or I can use a plugin to move it somewhere else. If I use docker I have to type 'docker logs', or I can use a plugin to move it somewhere else. etc. etc.

P.S. Agree completely with your praise of Docker. I'm firmly in the 'love both systemd and docker and wish they got along' camp.

qwertyuiop92410y ago

Wrong. Docker manages containers, and only containers. 'docker logs' shows you the logs from your containers. Docker never tried to make me run my non-container logs through 'docker logs'. You know what else docker never tried to be? cron. Or udev. Or consolekit. Or init. It just tries to manage your containers.

Etzos10y ago

I think this is a little bit off. You're looking at them from two different perspectives.

Docker wants to manage your containers. And in that regard it is one monolithic daemon that manages everything about your containers.

Systemd wants to manage your computer and things related to init. It is a bunch of modular, but strongly integrated, pieces that manage everything about your init and process management.

2 more replies

vidarh10y ago

Isolation and integration are not opposites. You can increase isolation (through e.g. judicious application of cgroups, which systemd encourages and makes use of) while also increasing integration (e.g. sharing APIs).

Docker is to me far more problematic when it comes to integration. It is trying to make everything go through itself, without providing a fraction of the scheduling and management capabilities that systemd does. Of of the motivations for Rocket is exactly that it allows for a far less monolithic experience than Docker - even when integrated with systemd.

qwertyuiop92410y ago

Integration is all well and good, I suppose. Until you put all your integration into a single process, which will kill your system if it ever crashes. Then I will have some words to say about you. Especially if you ever, ever, EVER, EVER, EVER, use assert, in ANY situation you could ever potentially recover from.

the_why_of_y10y ago

I disagree with your position on assertions and much prefer Bryan Cantrill's, because it results in bugs actually getting fixed:

  Hope is not a strategy, including for your
  software.  If your state has  become corrupt,
  it is incumbent upon you to die and donate
  your body to science, where it can be
  debugged.

1 more reply

atemerevOP10y ago

Why recover if restarting is much simpler? Like in Erlang and Akka, this leads to incredibly reliable systems.

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bryanlarsen10y ago

Your criticism of systemd still applies to docker. "Supervision, logging, communication, IO, configuration, state management — everything goes through docker"

P.S. Agree completely with your praise of Docker. I'm firmly in the 'love both systemd and docker and wish they got along' camp.

qwertyuiop92410y ago

Etzos10y ago

I think this is a little bit off. You're looking at them from two different perspectives.

Docker wants to manage your containers. And in that regard it is one monolithic daemon that manages everything about your containers.

Systemd wants to manage your computer and things related to init. It is a bunch of modular, but strongly integrated, pieces that manage everything about your init and process management.

2 more replies

vidarh10y ago

qwertyuiop92410y ago

the_why_of_y10y ago

I disagree with your position on assertions and much prefer Bryan Cantrill's, because it results in bugs actually getting fixed:

  Hope is not a strategy, including for your
  software.  If your state has  become corrupt,
  it is incumbent upon you to die and donate
  your body to science, where it can be
  debugged.

1 more reply

atemerevOP10y ago

Why recover if restarting is much simpler? Like in Erlang and Akka, this leads to incredibly reliable systems.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse