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0 pointstptacek16y ago0 comments

Wow. You definitely are half a programmer! Burned!

HTML is a huge pain in the ass to write:

* It requires balancing tags

* It's verbose

* It is crudded up with syntax (</-="") and keywords

* It consistently runs right off the 80 column right margin

* It's an enormous pain to extend

* It's slow to read; for instance, try picking the plural version of a constantly-used class name out of tag soup

Haml isn't a shortcut to writing HTML. On the contrary, to use it well, you have to know HTML well. What Haml does is to solve the problems that make HTML a pain to use to express user interface in.

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5 comments · 2 top-level

coderdude16y ago· 3 in thread

I guess I set myself up? You make some good points about why HTML is a pain in the ass. I'm just desensitized to it to the point that it doesn't bother me anymore. In fact, I didn't even think of the issues you brought up.

tptacekOP16y ago

I was once like you.

What it took for me was writing a UI in Haml with very minimal, semantic markup and all the controls keyed in jQ off classes and IDs.

When you structure your HTML, CSS, and Javascript correctly, Haml is absolutely gorgeous. You're no longer writing in HTML: you're writing in a DSL designed to express user interface. For instance, a "save" button encoded in a DIV in Haml:

    .button#save

That's it.

coderdude16y ago

Does Haml allow you to control how the actual markup is produced? Some browsers are dependent on a lack of whitespace between nodes in order to render properly without adding some extra padding (IE for instance). For me, the main issue is control over my markup. Exact and precise control, which is necessary.

2 more replies

wvenable16y ago

Isn't that the wrong level of abstraction, though? An actual save button in my application looks like this in HTML:

    <button id="Save" name="Save" type="submit" class="positive" tabindex="10">
    <img src="/graphics/icons/save.png">Save Changes
    </button>

I'm not sure what that would like in Haml, but in a template language it might look something like this:

    <ctl:SaveButton />

I would think a DSL designed to express user interface would actually be a much higher abstraction. Haml is just 1-to-1 with HTML.

2 more replies

nostrademons16y ago

"It requires balancing tags"

Only for tags that need an ending delimiter, unless you use XHTML. Check out the Google markup sometime. All the <li>, <td>, <tr>, and <img> tags are intentionally unbalanced - because they don't have to be, and balancing them just makes your website take longer to download.

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#syntax-tag-omissi...

"It consistently runs right off the 80 column right margin"

I've never had that problem. I also have no qualms about breaking lines between tag attributes.

"It's an enormous pain to extend"

HTML5 "data-" attributes make this a bit easier. Still room for improvement here, though.

A lot of the pain points in HTML are self-inflicted by developers who read some "best practices" on the web and then never question what they get out of those best practices.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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5 comments · 2 top-level

coderdude16y ago· 3 in thread

tptacekOP16y ago

I was once like you.

What it took for me was writing a UI in Haml with very minimal, semantic markup and all the controls keyed in jQ off classes and IDs.

    .button#save

That's it.

coderdude16y ago

2 more replies

wvenable16y ago

Isn't that the wrong level of abstraction, though? An actual save button in my application looks like this in HTML:

    <button id="Save" name="Save" type="submit" class="positive" tabindex="10">
    <img src="/graphics/icons/save.png">Save Changes
    </button>

I'm not sure what that would like in Haml, but in a template language it might look something like this:

    <ctl:SaveButton />

I would think a DSL designed to express user interface would actually be a much higher abstraction. Haml is just 1-to-1 with HTML.

2 more replies

nostrademons16y ago

"It requires balancing tags"

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#syntax-tag-omissi...

"It consistently runs right off the 80 column right margin"

I've never had that problem. I also have no qualms about breaking lines between tag attributes.

"It's an enormous pain to extend"

HTML5 "data-" attributes make this a bit easier. Still room for improvement here, though.

A lot of the pain points in HTML are self-inflicted by developers who read some "best practices" on the web and then never question what they get out of those best practices.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse