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It certainly feels different when you feel affected. You want to be reactionary. You want to have a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe I now understand why people are so quick to try to blame the issue on a certain cause.
But inside me I've spent my time fighting against this. I know that those attacks are not done "just for fun", they are driven by what makes them so effective: The fear they instill. The panic. The people who want to start putting the blame on a marginalized group that is prone to violence by their own situation.
Part of me wants to elaborate, but another part of me feels too sick to actually write more about this. I just want to go to bed, forget it happened.
I would like to ask the HN community to please not be reactionary about it. Please don't be xenophobic. Please don't marginalize groups.
And I have actually only seen one comment talking about car accidents, in a very different light than what you imply... so add to that, please don't make shit up.
Exactly, and very important, not given the platform they want, the media are very much a part of this as well.
And that's why we very much should not react by further damaging the social fabric ourselves, but that is extremely hard, especially when everybody will be clamoring for some kind of reaction.
I do think you want to treat it as "murder is a serious crime and needs to be prosecuted and punished" rather than "this is an act of Islamic terrorism and we need to declare War on Terror!". But, universally ignored is hardly how you want to react. You want to close borders and you want to declare emergency and you want to, ideally, apprehend these people using conventional police. You do not want to live in a permanent state of panic or build a police state after the fact, and you definitely don't want to take out your anger on a whole population of people over the actions of a small radical group. But you do want a, rational but concerned, reaction.
Right now, you want to get people to safety, help the survivors and catch those responsible, in that order.
A scene from Brazil that explores this idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4KFNhxibec
maybe it will also have a side-effect of uniting people and countries against a common threat to all humanity.
I don't think that will happen. Remember "Je suis Charlie"? How long did that sentiment last?
It's a matter of time before people will be writing 'Je suis Francais', and then promptly forget it a few days or weeks later.
I think a lot of people are afraid that these incidents will lead to more wars in the Middle East, create more terrorists, and cause more attacks. This will further erode our fourth amendment freedoms and probably the second too, which is exactly what the terrorists want.
Don't know what to say , just that I hope everybody and their families are safe.
This is hard, a very hard hit on my country. Vive la France.
Stay safe.
I feel the strong need to point out that in these difficult times in Europe and the world, we CANNOT allow right-wing political extremism to use them to gather power. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MUSLIMS, IMMIGRANTS OR WHATNOT. THIS IS ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE.
It is like Steven Weinberg summarized: With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Recognizing this is important for assessing the situation and how to counter the problem – this is not a circumstance where more mental health services will make the tiniest difference. It requires intelligent debate about education, philosophy (including religion), and how to convey to people that any religious beliefs that cause the deaths of others are simply wrong.
Religion is not per se horrible – obviously the super-majority of religious people are fully functional contributing members of society and should be protected just like everyone else - but it has been used throughout history to conduct a huge number of atrocities.
Not really; religious identity politics are often used by leaders (whose motivation seems to be more power-seeking than genuinely religious) to connect with foot-soldiers (whose real impetus seems often to be desperation to improve conditions for their family, or themselves, or to redress wrongs they feel have been done to their family or themselves, or to feel connected to a group and gain meaning.)
And you see the same thing done in other places with racial identity politics, economic class identity politics, national identity politics, etc. (And, in many cases, many of these are at play in the same movement.)
Islam has nothing to do with this whatsoever, no more than say a Christian shooter in some cinema in has anything to do with Christianity. Islam as a religion has a ton of issues that make this particular kind of thing very hard to get rid of and it is a sad coincidence that many youths that are easily misled are receptive to all sorts of bs but to generalize across a billion or so people because of what a few assholes did is simply wrong.
People who oppose rampant immigration, incompatible cultures, and hostile groups, are "extremists"?
You are living in a climate where Muslims flood out into the streets and chant death threats (and then kill people) because someone made a joke about Muhammad.
Bending over to these people and blaming yourself is not the way forwards - unless you want more of this chaos.
France has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe, and 20% of this group are brazen enough to sympathize and justify with terrorism when polled. There is a correlation here.
Source: http://live.reuters.com/Event/Paris_attacks_2?utm_source=twi...
Like, how do they shut this down?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/France/@49.5467828,5.43629...
It's a lot easier to re-establish something that was there before than it is to do it from scratch and this is more of a logistical problem (and a personel one) than one of technicalities about whether or not such a thing can be done. It's not like France didn't have a functioning border patrol a couple of years ago.
> Where there is a serious threat to public policy or internal security, these countries may exceptionally reintroduce border controls at its internal borders for a period of no more than 30 days (possible to prolong under conditions established by the code) or for the foreseeable duration of the serious threat. This action should be seen as a last resort.
source: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:l...
France was actually going to reinstate some border checks from November 13 to December 13 for the COP21.
They will likely be similar military/Customs presence at checkin for any international train or flight.
Also, those with comments that are trying to cause fear and hatred, you are just making other muslims living in the west feel scared and sad. I swear, right now im scared taht one day some people will be treating muslims just like how Americans used to treat black people in Slavery era. Even worse, Im afraid we might see concentration camps like how Nazis did to Jews.
>in the prelude to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, President George W. Bush told Jacques Chirac that Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East: "This confrontation is willed by God," he told the French leader, "who wants us to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins." [Wikipedia]
which kind of kicked of the present run of difficulties.
And in case you forgot, secularists brought us the most violent conflicts in history, just last century. US slavery didn't need religion, nor did Apartheid. nor climate change or the atomic bomb. Pacifism is pretty much a religious concept, exclusively so until relatively recent human history.
I don't really see how fanatic rationalism has any leg to stand on, really.
It's very sad to see that kind of blind hatred.
When I heard the news I went to the neighborhood deli shop to buy cigarettes. The owners and workers there are muslim. They had a TV set up and were watching the news. I hung out with them for an hour or so. Watching, talking, feeling, reacting. All of us just being human, as the vast majority of people do.
As I was leaving I said, "Vive la France." And everyone there started saying it too.
I hope for the sake of everyone that all of us can realize that this kind of behavior has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam or the vast majority of how muslims think.
My thoughts are with muslim people all over the world tonight just as much as they are with the people of France. There will be reprisals against innocent people. But I will argue and fight against those just as much as I support and care about those who have lost loved ones in Paris today.
That's already starting, some idiots set fire to the camp near Calais.
EDIT: If you're anywhere near these events in Paris, please get to safety now!
1. Enter house claiming to need to go somewhere. 2. Kill everybody. 3. Move to next willing house and repeat.
I was wondering though if there are some creative ways to improve this initiative and make it more secure. Anyone has anything better than filtering eventual candidates to give shelter to according to rough "trustworthiness" of their Twitter account?
Obviously don't know yet who is responsible, but I don't understand why France is being targeted in this way. They are hardly terrorist enemy number one.
is that even really about separation of church and state? Somehow I doubt it.
Also the US takes the, IMO, "better" position of saying that individuals practicing private religion doesn't break separation of church and state. Organized religion does.
Of course the US also effectively forces their children to recite a pledge (which includes "under god"), which I find rather distateful.
That's not separation of church and state, that's suppression of unpopular religion by the secular state, which is no different than suppression of unpopular religion in favor of a popular religion by the state. (And its not just in schools, though that was one of the focal points in the debates, the ban applies in all public spaces in France.)
You might think that only because it doesn't resonate in the English-speaking press, but that's far from true. In reality, France is historically involved in any goings-on in Northern Africa, and is a fundamental partner to US and UK in Middle East policies. They were the main proponents for "blowing up" Lybia, while UK and Italy had built bridges with the regime and were preparing for an eventual transition. They started military operations in Syria only a few months ago, but mostly because they have troops continuously engaged in various African countries and have to keep an eye on their limited resources.
Across radicalised groups all over Africa, ME and Asia, France is still seen as an old-school, violent colonial power with an anti-muslim bent. You could be surprised if Spain or (to a lesser degree) Italy were targeted, but France easily makes the "Top 5 Targets List" of most violent nutjobs in that part of the world.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34372892
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-09/french-def...
We consistently rank with top-notch nations, thank you very much.
Certainly they're closer and easier to get to from the Middle East than other parts of the world and contain a larger Arab population making it easier to hide within and recruit from.
But I would imagine French intelligence is deep within that same population and I remember members of the military on patrol in the streets of Paris.
Maybe because they let into their borders too many losers whose worldview renders them incapable of finding their way around the western the world? Maybe no more reasons are needed? No politics, no aims, nothing to gain, just a bunch of frustrated losers?
The _reality_ is that certain religion somehow is different, for that religion a well-educated youth could easily become a cold-blood terrorist after watching some youtube videos and read a few propaganda booklets, throw everything away he previously learnt in the west, the place where he was raised, and use what he learnt to attack from within. That change is usually drastic, maybe that's why we call them extremist. It's very different from other massive killers that are having mental issues.
Everything in the universe is ruled by probability, there are hundreds of religions on earth but the integration of this group is just statistically unpredictable with much higher risk. It's not worth integrating in my opinion.
I foresee Europe will suffer from it for years to come.
https://www.change.org/p/justin-trudeau-extend-resettlement-...
I can understand why the police units dealing with this situation do not want to let that kind of thing happen again.
These look very much like the Mumbai attacks from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks
Basically they go after soft targets where large number of people gather (cafes, bars etc) - very hard to defend against if you have any kind of open society.
Whoever these Assholes are they deserve no mercy.
Either way, it's an absolutely awful turn of events, and the kind of horrible thing that I thought would never happen again after the attacks in the early 00s.
www.spiegel.de/international/the-future-of-terrorism-what-al-qaida-really-wants-a-369448.html
(There's also a whole suite of technology problems here solved via JDAMs and Hellfires, which seem to be actively being pursued.)
Treating symptoms is never as useful as treating the underlying cause.
Reminds me of this thing they have in Amsterdam: http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-discuss/expat-page/news/neth...
I am so saddened by this situation with a powerful IS which wants to remove our freedom and change the world into an extreme muslim one.
We must remember not to spread hate towards all the peaceful muslims.
One thing is for sure, marginalizing and discriminating even more is not a solution.
Obviously ISIS is past the point of laissez-faire tolerance but that isn't the point, ideological censorship should always be a last resort.
In fact, French and Russian security services are known for their heavy touch. Fat lot of good it's doing for them.
Edit for source: http://www.dw.com/en/france-arrests-islamic-state-supporter-...
I believe it was LA that had a plane fly above the city and record 24/7. It was just enough resolution to make out cars and people, but not identify anyone. Less invasive than security cameras in that sense. And I don't think it was live. It was just something the police could go back to and look at after a crime as committed, and see where the criminals went or came from.
Given some conditions, like the recordings be deleted after a few days, and that it requires a warrant to look at, I think that would be ok.
Apparently this method is not working at all.
It is our duty to keep our heads cool and minds clear. When the smoke has cleared - then we will grief.
An attack of this size and coordination was without a doubt electronically communicated. We can't possibly infiltrate every group of radicals with informants. And they are not going to stop.
And now, I'll just wait for the downvotes I guess.
Can you see how this is an extremely broad, lazy generalization? What really supports this comparison, other than their religion and colour of their skin?
And yes, "families fleeing war" are potential terrorist candidates. There is quite a possibility of future generations to radicalize. This happens (Europe exports quite some fighters for ISIL) and it will happen in the future, because the foundations are present. The refugees coming here will be mosty the future bottom of the lower class. And being poor, having no perspective and being insecure about ones identity aren't really things thatr you want to experience combined into a single adolescent boy.
And "families fleeing war" are not the only ones coming as refugees. It is also the fleeing fighters of ISIL.
We'll be in some deep shit in the coming years.
If you marginalize people, mistrust them, do not make an effort to integrate them, and make them feel like the only place where they are welcome is segregated communities, don't be surprised when they radicalize. This has happened all throughout history, and will continue without changes.
Conservatives scream that Liberals are too soft on immigration, and are too focused on "political correctness". They want them to wake up and recognize that scary "others" are around every corner and can't wait to harm us. Well, the irony is that it is those social policies and that ostracization that creates the conditions in which resentment grows.
And here we are. Screaming more about "those muslims". Which only pushes moderate muslims further to feel like there is no tolerance for nuiance in the West.
This will do gangbusters for ISIS recruitment.
edit: Just so people understand, I'm not victim blaming anyone. I am traumatized as one of my favourite cities and areas that I've been to only weeks ago are in the grips of panic and terror at the hands of horrific monsters.
I'm not saying "Well yeah, of course, that's what's going to happen. France had it coming". I'm responding to the people who are saying "Well, yeah, of course, that's what's going to happen. When you allow so many immigrants and muslims have free reign". I'm looking ahead at the next few weeks as people take this opportunity to just blame everything on Islam. And make the situation worse longer term.
@deanCommie
Please, stop with the excuses , nobody marginalized anybody. The terrorists are not victims , the islamists are not victims. so don't give them excuses. The wide majority of muslims in France are integrated, they are bakers, plumbers , computer scientists , my baker is a muslim , so stop with that bull. There is no excuse none.
10% of the french people are muslims, that's a fact, out of that fact it increases the chances of people chosing an extreme vision of islam. There was attacks in Spain , UK and obviously USA, is it because muslims were marginalized ? so stop please, you are ignorant trying to apply your post modernist canvas on things when some people are still taken hostage as we speak, you should be ashamed of yourself.
FYI : I'm black and come from a muslim family though i'm not muslim, those who fail are those who don't try hard enough, nobody said it will be easy. Everything is "free" in France, education , college, healthcare , you feel "marginalized" , well there is Europe and you can basically pick and choose the country you want to live in today. So no excuses, enough.
I'm not defending the terrorists. I'm defending people like your family who will be lumped in with them in the next couple of weeks as people blame all of this on immigration and islam, like they do every time.
The fact is, we are living in an age of muslim extremism and sympathies are at an all time high. We could look at it at that fact and blame 1.57 billion people for all sharing this radical ideology, or we could look at what other forces are nudging a small section of those people to radicalize. And avoid denial.
Sooooo many studies have been done where the same resume gets shown to recruiters, except one has a French name and the other has an Arabic name. The results were an overwhelming amount of french resumes were chosen over the Arabic one. Not to mention constant issues like police harassment
The issue of integration of purely the fault of a country that pretends that race doesn't matter while simultaneously punishing minorities every step of the way
"Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."
-Winston Churchill, from "The River War"
source : http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp
"starvation of anyhow underfed Bengalis is less serious than that of sturdy Greeks"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943#Suppli...
And definitely not a benchmark for the 21st century.
I'm sorry but you can't just say "this is the inevitable outcome of marginalization". There are plenty of marginalized groups that choose not to commit mass murder in the name of justice.
EDIT: There is preventing integration as a host nation's people, and refusing to integrate as an immigrant. One can only do so much to make a person feel welcome in a country as their new home. You may bring your beliefs, but you'll follow the laws and human rights expectations of your host country. Otherwise, stay at home, war torn or not.
Disclaimer: American who is unwilling to watch first world country progress move backwards due to political correctness.
"We" (US, UK, France, Italy, Germany etc etc) have completely destabilised an entire subcontinent in the last 25 years. "We" keep pretending that these places are far away, far removed from our shining civilisations, but they are not -- they are on our doorstep, they have been our neighbours for millennia. Rome was fighting wars in that region when ships were still powered by human rowers. Until "we" think that a few drones is all we need to solve what is now a humongous clusterfuck (mostly of our own making), "we" will suffer wave after wave of lunatics with a death wish. Unfortunately, none of the current crop of European and American leaders has the faintest clue about what to do about it, except applying short-term measures that look good on tabloids.
It seems like your point is that the French are to blame because they didn't properly integrate Muslim immigrants?
This is shockingly bad taste. People are still dying, as we speak, and you decide to rail against a strawman and blame the victims because you are nervous about your political opponents making hay?
So no, I don't buy it you blaming the host country, in this case France.
I know this is not the best place to nitpick, but I believe you should capitalize the "m" in "Muslim" when used as a noun.
Beyond reporting emergency contact info they serve no purpose other than encouraging the next attack.
Reddit discussions become overrun with useless comments. Stupid memes, puns, and just other irrelevant drivel.
Many of the mainstream news outlets have lagging facts, horrible commenting (if any) and biased/washed/slanted reporting.
HN thoroughly discourages both worthless commenting and links to worthless news sources.
For me personally, I much prefer following stories like this on HN vs anywhere else.
I think I'll go watch my copy of "The Battle of Algiers".
