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0 pointsKarunamon10y ago0 comments

Here's the problem though - Descent was optimized for those comparatively awful connections. League doesn't specify any minimums, but players report games becoming difficult around 100ms and nigh unplayable >=300ms. (From a casual google)

With LoL being as team-based as it is, knowing if/when my Blitzcrank is going to be able to land his rocket grab lets me know when to launch my ultimate and the rest of the team to join the fight. Having a high ping guy initiate a teamfight is.. unwise.

But quite honestly, I don't believe that hypothesis. If someone is going to get bothered to the point of toxicity by ping, something that is almost completely out of the player's control, they're going to get just as bothered being killed by Malzahar's global ultimate, someone picking the wrong team composition, not getting the lane they want, someone speaking a language other than perfect english, and so on.

It's like instead of optimizing for players to be able to play their best and give them the tools to do so, they optimize for, and drag everyone else down to the level of the emotional child. As someone who is not an emotional child (at least I think not): that's disheartening.

I also don't believe Riot is serious about dealing with the problem - it takes a long history of being a serious jerk before the bans start getting trotted out (talk of "correction cards" aside).

And it makes sense why - banned people don't buy champions and skins.

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simoncion10y ago· 1 in thread

> Descent was optimized for those comparatively awful connections.

Descent 3? Yes.

Descent 1 and 2? No. Absolutely not. D1 and D2 were written for play on IPX/SPX LANs. All latency compensation was done manually by the player. It wasn't until the IPX/SPX to TCP/IP bridges known as Khan and Kali came out that folks could play them on the Internet using their shitty analog modems. In fact, a pretty big part of Descent 3's marketing was that it was optimized for play over a analog modem connection to the Internet. [0][1] (Source: I've -sadly- put far more hours into Descent 1 and 2 than probably any other video game. I could fly the first five or ten mines in both installments backwards, with rear-view off and not hit a wall. I also racked up far more in per-minute charges to my dial-up ISP than I ever want to think about.)

Edit: As I was thinking about this, I remembered that both D1 and D2 also offered null-modem (AKA crossover serial) and analog modem options for head-to-head multiplayer. Note that neither of these options transmit data over IP; the analog modem option just acted as a really long null-modem cable. ;) The analog modem option was likely added because once you've written the code to handle null-modem connections, you're at least 90% of the way to handling analog modem connections. But -again-, latency compensation was entirely handled by the player.

> ...players report games becoming difficult around 100ms and nigh unplayable >=300ms...

Here's the thing. If you have -for a little while- a > 300ms ping spike, it's going to disrupt your play. If you always have a > 300ms ping, two things are true:

1) It's the only way you've ever played, so your reaction times are going to tuned to that latency.

2) You're never going to have any basis for comparison, so (and this is key) you're not going to complain about your ping on forums.

> If someone is going to get bothered to the point of toxicity by ping, ... they're going to get just as bothered being killed by Malzahar's global ultimate, [etc.]

I generally agree with this. However, if one can easily remove two barriers to a player's enjoyment and not substantially impact the game's character or mechanics, why shouldn't one do such a thing? The action obviously produces more happiness than it eliminates.

> It's like instead of optimizing for players to be able to play their best and give them the tools to do so, they optimize for, and drag everyone else down to the level of the emotional child.

This is hyperbole. You can't seriously believe that the removal of player level and ping information from the match loading screen is "drag[ging] everyone else down to the level of the emotional child".

> I also don't believe Riot is serious about dealing with the problem...

I played LoL for a looong time. I played before the Tribunal was even a thing. I can't speak to how serious Riot is about improving the community, but the difference between the pre-Tribunal community and the community today is night and day. The improvement is vast, and has largely come through the steps that Riot has taken to remind folks that

* This is just a game.

* Your teammates are people, too.

* People who enjoy themselves are more likely to play well. People who play well win more often.

and through steps to identify and prevent chronically toxic players from interacting with non-toxic players. Maybe the isolation machinery doesn't work quickly enough for your liking, but it is there, it does work, and it has had a real, positive effect on the character of the playerbase.

> ...banned people don't buy champions and skins.

Non-toxic players who refuse to play the game because the playerbase is full of toxic players also don't buy champs and skins, and they don't introduce their friends to the game. LoL is bigger than WoW. [2] Riot gains more by permabanning chronically toxic players than they lose in lost potential revenue from said players.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0aXovYR9iQ

[1] It's more-or-less illegible, but there's a section in the middle of the retail D3 box that mentions how the game is optimized for modem Internet play: http://bubbalou.event3d.com/descent/dvd/d3web.jpg

[2] http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2014/01/27/riots-leag...

KarunamonOP10y ago

Heh, fair enough on Descent, I just remember a lot of time spent playing it over modem (and cursing noisy phone lines). Wasn't aware that LAN was the first class citizen there :)

But league, I was more referring to the standpoint of everyone else on the team, not the one guy with high ping. The one guy is living in a world that's offset a quarter to a half of a second behind everyone else - he can't play better than his ping. 350ms is enough time to blink, dodge a skillshot, and so on. In casual games or lower tier ranked that might not matter or even be noticeable, but get up into Diamond/Challenger? Painful.

What if one's enjoyment of the game is based on their performance and competition (i.e. the people who play in the higher levels of ranked?), rather than vague "happiness"?

I've played enough of the game to know that being stuck in a losing game (yes yes, it's just a game, not the point) sucks. It's awful and inescapable (since quitting hurts your team and penalizes you), and a lot of the time, it happens because of factors completely out of your control, whether that be internet connections, that one guy who just disconnected leaving you down a guy, or that one guy who uses phrases ending in "...or I feed". You enter this system to compete with others, and you're denied the one thing you came there to do (and knowing how long matches can take, perhaps the only time you had to do).

Competition as a system necessarily involves unhappiness on the part of one party.. I know few people who enjoy losing.

>You can't seriously believe that..

At the risk of sounding overly snarky, you just said that riot's goal is to maximize happiness. That means removing things used by children to cry about, even if the adults have a legitimate reason for their inclusion. That is the very definition of optimizing to the lowest common denominator.

>It is there, it does work..

And yet the new player experience is still awful. I can say this, because as far as League's system is concerned, I am a new player. There's a reason some high 90s percentage of my games are with friends, rather than matchmaking games that actually raise my standings- dealing with the community sucks. People who leave, people who feed, people who just act like jerks.

If there is improvement, it's completely invisible to me. Perhaps the higher ranks have been cleaned up, but the bottom of the pyramid is still godawful.

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